Topic: Splitsville, New York: a forum on New York's divorce system

I've read with interest and some sadness all of the posts on here.  Although there are a thousand stories, the simple fact is that the majority of divorces are brought by women who have no grounds.  They are simple no longer in love and want out.  The history of custody decisions tends to give these women confidence that they can continue thier lives, keep the children, the house and recieve a faily good settlement.  Lawyers back this up.  My spouses lawyer even advertises showing a beautiful blonde next to a sports car with the liscense plate saying "WAS HIS" on it.  Dads face losing not only thier wives (we can get over that) but also a substantial part of thier assets, thier children and thier house.  This after doing absolutely nothing wrong.  With the laws requiring grounds, it gives them a way to defend thier lives.

 In my own case, the judge forced a settlement that resulted in shared parenting.  We each have the kids every other week.  It was difficult in the beginning but even my kids and my ex. now agree it was the best settlement.  I found the judge to be carring and he placied great preasures on the lawyers to get us to settle and move quickly.  The system can work.  Defaulting the system to shared parenting  instead of winner takes all has worked in a number of states.  Perhaps we should be looking in that direction.

These are just some ideas that have been enacted in other states to reduce the adversarial combat of divorce concerning children that have worked everywere.
Some progress has been made on some of these in New York, but not enough for me.
Its hard for me to understand what holds New York back.

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grace

[url=http://www.alcoholaddiction.org/new-york ]New York Alcohol Addiction Treatment[/url]

First let me share some important ponits in this NY divorce system. The first thing is before you carry on the process you have to consult with the New york lawyer regarding this. Then it is recommended that if at all possible to attend a co parental counselling with you ex. This councelling will really help to settle out more than half of the problems between you and you (ex)spouse.

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Leofernando

New York Drug Addiction

I began my journey through the maze of our court system for divorce in 1998. Since then I have not only learned a lot but I have no respect for our legal system, the Judges and the lawyers in the system. From early 1998 thru late 2002 there were 10 different judges assigned to my case. Not one of which was capable of making a desision and worse if they did, (happened twice) enforcing it. I had a friend sit in the second floor area of Nassau supreme Court and hear my ex tell her lawyer that she did not have to comply as she was the children's caretaker and they would do nothing to her and she was right. My ex allienated me from my 3 kids. Everything wrong in this world was my falut. Am I angry? You bet but I am also intellegant enough to know without full reform, no fault divorce will only make it worse. I have since given up my rights to my kidsa only because I did not have any. There were 2 different law guardians and both were inefective, go figure.

I have testified in front of the Martimonial Commission and would be willing to share the text of such.  I spend upwards of $250K for my divorce and my lawyer when the divorce was granted never even gave me a copy of the divorce and even waive nmy right to review before it was sent to a judge for signeture. After I tried to get it changed and wasted more money and time, filed suit against my last attorney and was told by several law professors I had a good case only to get it dismissed by both Nassau Supreme and the Appelete court as well the later on technical issues as I did it Pro See. I was granted visitation but my ex never complied and said the kids didn't want to see me and the court accepted this. She moved out of state without the court knowing and when I brough it before the court, it took her lawyer 90 days to tell me where. Again the judge did nothing. They finally ordered the kids to NY to see me and instead of flying 2 hours they drove for 10. I did have a nice breakfast with them and never had contact with them again as I was blocked by legal manovers I could not afford to counter. I finally gave up my rights to them as I was paying $2500 a month and she didn't need that money. She inhearited over half a million and her new husband almost the same. They some the house and moved down south, bought a house for cash, new cars etc. and do not work. (they also made $350K on the house I gave her) so I* was covering her legal bills. 

Unless the legal system is reformed from top to bottom this won't change. I know of many who have been put through the wringer in just Nassau alone. It's the good ol' boys network to say the least. They all protect their own and know one can disprove it. I would be more than happy to talk about this in public and have been on TV, News 12, UPN 9, CW 11, and several cable shows as well.  

Dear Mr. Schepard,

I applaud and commend you (as well as Mr. Carlson, Dr. Demby and Mr. Mayerson) for bringing attention to the catastrophic impact that outdated divorce practices in New York State have on all parties involved. Our state government desparately needs to examine the current legislature and the way these antiquated procedures have negatively affected countless members of our communities. In a system that has evidently demonstrated that it has far exceeded its ability to best serve the people, action must be demanded now.

I feel so strongly about this matter because I am very personally affected by it. After 18 years of marrige, I was divorced in 1998, and even though we are in 2008, I am still in the throes of dealing with an embittered, verbally and emotionally abusive ex-spouse. I have desperately executed each and every one of your suggested techniques for minimizing the adverse effect of divorce on children, the most vital being not to disparage the "other" parent and consequently alienate a child's affections from that parent. However, my ex-spouse has not. Though I have "moved on" with my life, engaged in a loving and commited relationship with another man, and provided my children with a financially and emotionally solid home enviornment, my ex-spouse continues to torment me. I willingly agreed to joint custody, praying that their father would seize the opportunity to be all he could be to and for his children. Throughout the years, he has chosen to be in the periphery of their lives at best. However, I am presently facing the real possibility of having to go to court (again) to petition for sole legal custody of our 15 year old son, because I can no longer tolerate his bearing the brunt of his fathers' wrath towards me. Our daughter (now 20), who decided to live with her father at the age of 15, was the first victim of his tyrannical propaganda. Utilizing the Nassau County Family Court system and a personal attorney was a completely overwhelming scenerio and I was led to believe at that time that allowing her to move into her father's home would be best, even though I did not agree. She now grossly regrets her decision to leave my home, but due to a negative mindset towards me which her father strategically propagated during her youth, she is incapable of moving forward in life and is completely stunted in her ability to develop independence. During the past 10 years since our divorce, I have tried to maintain civil and respectful open communication with my former spouse on behalf of the children. My present attempts to keep him engaged in our son's life  (both positive and negative), has been met with either indifferrence or hostility. A direct reflection on the short comings of the divorce/legal sysytem with regard to joint parental custody (as it has impacted my situation) is that while I as the custodial parent have dealt with the joys and angsts of raising our son (and daughter), his/their father has chosen to be "a parent of convenience". As he has repeatedly stated to me, the courts have empowered him to "see the children IF he chooses to, but he doesn't have to". Mandated family/ parent counseling should have been instituted. I personally sought professional support for myself and the children ( Banana Splits/ Divorced Parents Groups, etc.) Though he availed himself of a bi-weekly visitation schedule, duiring that time no routines or quality family relationships have been developed in his home. To the contrary, my son would return to our home from "fantasyland" believing that living with me is a battle to be fought. His father has repeatedly undermined my authority and verbally defamed my character, as well as that of my domestic partner, to our son and daughter. Our children were exposed to their father's selfish and egocentric views on how I "destroyed the family". That I put my needs and personal welfare before theirs. That my engaging in a healthy, loving adult relationship with another man is detrimental to them. My attempts to raise healthy children who are compassionate, responsible, honest and confident, has met with nothing but threats, hysterical confrontation, agitation and aggravation. Our son has now entered into adoloscence and deals with typical teenage issues (school, friends, home,etc.) as he grows and tries to develop an identity and understand his role within society. This phase in development is difficult enough to navigate without the disruptive imput of an embittered parent. My attempts to gain his father's support when our son is behaving inappropriately or is verbally provocative, have given the father the opportunity to present himself as a "knight in white armor"- the person who comes to battle me on his behalf. As a result, my son views my attempts to provide love, structure and support as a threat, and has now become verbally and emotionally abusive towards me. My son has now left my home and gone to spend the summer with his father. I am distrught with the knowledge that he is being further drawn into a dysfunctional situation. I have insisted that they both enter into therapy with me, and am trying to stay in close contact with both my children. My attempts to contact their father by phone to discuss issues go without response. I do not want my children to sufferr any further with the damaging effects of the failed marrige between their parents. I will therefore wait patiently before resorting to handling the matter in court.

I once again commend you and your colleagues for bringing to public attention the plight of new York State divorcees and their children. I would greatly appreciate any advice that you can give me on how to proceed with my situation. I strongly believe that mediation and therapy can lead to reconcilliation between ex-spouses if both work cooperatively on behalf of their children to make the transition to "divorced familyhood" a reality.

Keep it 'Fault'....

Bottom line-there is no good way to divorce but  no-fault divorce simply makes it easier for one side, usually the wife as women instigate about 80% of all divorces, to walk away with at least half or more of a couple's property even if she is the sole reason behind the divorce.

 A just divorce apportions blame for the breakdown.  You want to walk out? Go ahead but no money, no kids and no property- it's a great stimulus to stay together.  

No-fault is open season  for fleecing.

Based upon what I have observed in New York Courts and in representing clients, the reason that there is a bias in favor of mothers in custody matters is that in most cases, the number one priority of women in their divorce is having physical / residential custody of their children. 

It is much less common to see men pursue physical custody, unless there is a significant and compelling reason to do so, such as mental illness or addiction issues.  In our society, it is a huge stigma for a woman to get divorced and not have her children.  

For men, there is no such stigma whatsoever.  Most men that I have represented are very happy to pay their child support, and have a typical alternate weekend / one dinner per week / holiday schedule with their children.  

Over the years, however, I have seen an increasing number of male clients request (and obtain by negotiation) joint legal custody and decision making rights.   There are many studies that show that men who have joint decision making are more invested in their children, pay more child support, and the children fare much better post divorce.  For this reason, I encourage my female clients to agree to joint legal custody in the best interests of their children, whenever possible.  The few instances when joint custody is not recommended are in cases where there is domestic violence, unresolved anger between the parties and/or poor communication between the parties.

The bottom line is that children benefit the most when they have the input and guidance of both parents.  This is especially true following a divorce, when the family unit has been broken apart, and children unavoidably feel confused and abandoned. 

Parents need to learn to put their children first, and that means putting aside their anger and putting their energies into settling their case as amicably and expeditiously as possible.

 --Jacqueline Harounian, Esq.

Some perspective on gender bias in child custody disputes: The child custody dispute resolution system has a long history of intentional gender bias. Before the early 1900's children were basically the property of their fathers. In about 1910 the courts started articulating a presumption in favor of custody to mothers, the maternal presumption. The push for legal gender equality roughly eliminated the formal presumption of gender bias in the 1970's and 1980's articulating a gender neutral "best interests of the child" presumption. Articulations of what is in the best interests of children, however, such as the "psychological parent" test continued to favor mothers.

Most research showed that absent serious domestic violence or abuse or neglect neither parent was more important to another. Rather, the child benefitted from relationships with both parents, especially if they were not conflicted. Those findings were behind the push in many states for joint custody.

Today, legal doctrine in custody disputes (and all family law) is formally gender neutral (and should be). Claims do persist that the "system" is biased against men or women. I am skeptical of them. There are no systematic studies of whether actual court decisions in contested cases favor one gender over another. It is very difficult to conduct such a study, as each custody case is to some extent unique. You have to control, for example, for drug abuse, mental illness, etc. to find comparable cases.   

What is pretty clear is that the great majority of children after divorce have primary residence with their mothers. More fathers than ever, however, are heavily involved in the lives of their children after divorce.

Andy Schepard 

Almost forgot, here is a recent Concise History draft of No-fault!

http://www.notdss.com/0/Marriage%20Legal%20Materials/Concise%20History%20of%20No-Fault%209-9-06.doc

"No-Fault" is nothing but PROPAGANDA for one-sided, FORCED divorce on demand.  It provides the MOST incentive to destroy the family, and the least incentive to work through difficult issues.

Also, what most people will be shocked to learn is that NO-Fault was quietly and deceptively adopted in America by the LAWYERS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS!  And the legal business of family destruction is the biggest "growth area" of the legal system.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER TRUST A LAWYER TO DO THE RIGHT THING!  WHETHER IT IS A LAWYER IN BLACK ROBES (A JUDGE), OR A LAWYER IN THE LEGISLATURE (PASSING PERVERTED LAWS), OR A LAWYER IN THE COURTROOM / FAMILY BAR WHO MAKES THEIR LIVING AND THEIR MONEY FROM YOUR FAMILY'S DESTRUCTION!

Only a fool would believe that a lawyer who makes their living from the destruction of famlies (even if that lawyer wears a black robe) is looking out for your interests!

A question for the panelists, and anyone else with experience in this process:

In the personal stories that people have posted, I'm struck by the comments about perceived gender bias in the divorce court system. Still, there seems to be evidence for "bias" against both men and women, often depending on the whim of the judge or the particular situation the couple faces. Do you see any evidence of systemic bias, based on your professional work? Does the fault vs. no-fault debate have any connection to the vulnerability of the system to gender discrimination? And for that matter, is the divorce process currently impacted by other structural inequities that we see throughout the court systems, in terms of class and race?

Michelle Chen

I am nearing my 4th year in this circus.  I gave the first lawyer I hired $20,000 and then he quit.  He refused to take my phone calls with no explanation.  His secretary told me she begged him to call me--she was fired.  My second lawyer did a few things and then she quit; the opposing attorney filed a motion for sanctions against her and she completed the paperwork needed for the divorce.  Nobody ever informed me I was divorced.  I called the County Clerk's Office on a whim and found out that I had been divorced for a month. The divorce was contested and very ugly.  I have been to the court at least 30 times, usually it was adjourned, sometimes nobody showed up but me.  It is disgusting.  To the people who fight against no-fault divorce you should walk in these shoes before you venture an opinion.   I was married for 36 years, have never so much as entered a courtroom before this and the one time that I needed the system it was not there.  What is allowed here is criminal.  I have spent 8 hours on some days sitting in the hallway of the court.  I have seen mothers' with small childred sit there 8 hours also.  This is nothing but a blatant money making deal for the lawyers and an agony for the people who are abused by it.  In May 2007 Newsday came to my home and did an interview on divorce in New York, they sent a photographer who took about 100 pictures of me and never published the article.  The Chrisite Brinkley trial has been the catalyst for all this attention.  What a shame.  I hope that she uses her resources to fight for change in this system.  It would seem the only way that might happen is for there to be a good news story connected to the divorce.  Worst of all is that if you happen to get the divorce and spend every penny you have---well, surprise, there is no enforcement of the stipulations.  I ultimately went to the Office of the Self-Represented in Central Islip and filed a Motion to Show Cause of Contempt.  I had to find a process server in another state, where my ex-husband had fled, in order to get the deed to the house.  The house, which was already half mine is all that I received in the settlement.  The reason for that is because it was made clear to me in many ways that I would not win the trial.  Grounds are not that easy to prove, a trial is very expensive and so I took the house, which I had not lived in for 2 years, simply to end the debacle.  I now have an upcoming date for a hearing because the stipulations have still not been met.  Every time I left that courthouse I was sure I would never have to go there again, but here I am headed back in August.  Simply driving into the parking lot there make me ill.  It may seem normal to many people to go to court but to many of us it is alien.  I have stood on the mile long line in the freezing winter and in the sweltering summer with all the others who have to report to their parole officer.  They have it nailed, I heard one of them say one day, " I'm telling that Judge, I only got a half hour, I got tickets to the Mets".  I bet he made it to the game.  I don't think I uttered more than 20 words in all the times I was in Court.  In the end, they tell you which lie to tell, even coach you in open court and you tell the lie and then you get the divorce.  Gives you a lot of faith in the justice system.  I am 59 years old, am considered to be sane (so far) and I cannot reconcile that any judge, state or religion is going to make such a huge life altering decision for me.  It was hard enough to make it for myself.

When you read the comments in this forum and other message boards, it is common to see complaints about New York divorce laws, the judges, the "system" and everyone involved.  But lawyers are complained about the most. 

As a lawyer who specializes in matrimonial matters, I would encourage everyone who is contemplating a divorce to interview several lawyers before retaining one.  In every profession, there are "good" and "bad" apples.  There are attorneys who litigate every issue (and thereby incur huge fees) and there are attorneys who are known for a more moderate approach, which usually means a settlement in their client's best interest.

 What most often happens is that parties in a divorce go to attorneys when they are angry, insecure, or feeling spiteful.  So their divorce cases start out with unreasonable positions, game playing, and delays.  Six months (and a few legal bills later), most rational people come to their senses, their anger dissipates, and they start to think about settling issues.  When the case is finally over, and thousands of dollars have been unnecessarily spent on legal fees, they blame the lawyers, without ever accepting responsibility.

In my firm, which is one of the largest matrimonial firms on Long Island, we offer a free consultation, and we almost never commence litigation without a concerted effort to resolve issues.  When I meet with a client, I encourage the client to deal with their emotional and personal issues and keep it out of the divorce.  I encourage clients to view their divorce as the dissolution of a business partnership, which is how many judges tend to view divorce cases.  In other words, there are assets and debts that must be fairly divided.  Parents must learn to treat each other with respect, and they must communicate with one another.  The PEACE program is a very effective in this regard. 

 The vast majority of divorce involve simple financial issues and normal parenting issues.  These cases should be kept out of court.  If you go to an attorney when you are angry and tell that attorney to "go the judge" instead of trying to settle, don't blame it on the attorney and the "system".  Be an educated participant in the process!

Sincerely,

Jacqueline Harounian, Esq.

jackie@lawjaw.com 

I filed for divorce in June of 2005. My mistake had to go for a hair folicle test which came back possitive for cocaine and pot (I only knew about the pot which I didn't mind because it made him less of a monster). The forensic report reads that he is an addict, DSM1V anti social personality disorder and "developementally retarted" She recommended supervised visitation which doesn't matter because the forensic report stupidly enough does not come out untill the trial.  Now, three years later, the forensic report is deemed too old.When I met him he said he was bipolar but he seemed o.k.(to me) He was on lithium. Anyway... after the hair folicle test result, the judge ordered an exchange of the kids at the place for supervised visitation. Once he picked them up however, he was free to take them to Maryland, where he lives with his girlfriend in his girlfriends mothers house, his philosophy being that if he picked them up not high they would be safe!  

Last summer in August, I recieved a terrifying phone call from my son saying he was in the car with the girlfriend, she bounced them off guard rails and slammed them into a parked car! I did a background check on her. She had 3 DWI's had been in jail, was on probation, has a revoked drivers licence, lost custody of her son because of child endangerment has a stay away from her sons school and was investigated repeatedly by child protective services. I sent this information to the law guardian who told me she did not care, it is not her job to protect the children (if you email me at stellabluek@yahoo.com, I will tell you who she is. I drove down to Maryland and slept in my car by her house. My intention was to call the police as soon as she pulled away with them. I spoke to my brother sometime before the sun came up and he said "What if you call the police and she takes them on a high speed chase and wraps them around a tree?" I was so scared then that I drove home! My lawyer told the law guardian that it would not bode well for her if something happened to my children and she had this info, so she fianally made a motion for supervised visitation. The judge ordered him visitation in nassau county only and the children can not be exposed to girlfriend. Girlfriend got another dwi last Dec., ran a light slammed into another car permenently disabling passenger and went to jail until May 9th (big deal!). Stbxh also got dwi in March of 2007. He is fighting again to take kids to Maryland again this summer! Judge says o.k. if he passes a hair folicle test! This is so very sick and bazzare to me! We put helmets on their heads and put them in car seats to keep them safe and comply with the law but the same law is forcing me to play russian roulette with their lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My stbxh is being placated at the expence of my kids well being!!!!

No fault divorce should be low on the priorities of divorce reform. The children have threatened suicide, developed eating disorders, and are self mutilating. The true issue is child custody. Laws should be enacted to entitle each parent to equal time with the children, joint legal and physical custody. Additionally child support laws should be changed to recognize parents (mostly fathers) who spend substantial time with their children. Additionally parents receiving child support should be required to document at least 50% of the money being spent directly on the children.

Having been trough a bitter Nassau County divorce, I learned first hand how emotionally draining it is for everyone involved, especially children. Lawyers remarked they never saw so much paper in all their careers. The cost of our divorce exceeded $160,000 and took two years. Child custody is still an issue.

The problems start early in family court where temporary orders of protection are issued without any attempt to verify facts. All one has to do is go there, ask for an order, come up with any story stating you feel threatened, wait around the better part of a day and be granted a stay away order. One is now removed from their house and their children. Should you attend a little league game you’re arrested for contempt of court, which further ruins your cause. On the other hand if you don’t make any contact with your children you are considered to be abandoning them. The trail to get to the facts in these cases often occur months later, by then much damage is already done.

This alienation is further aided by Child Protective Services with also ignores facts and disposes of cases the easiest way it knows how – do nothing and close them. A simple call to Albany and brief letter persuaded the state to dispose of Nassau’s baseless CPS findings. No fair trail was even required, that’s how outrageous the false claims were.

When one files for divorce and requests child support again one’s word is taken as fact, no supporting evidence needed. In my case my wife overstated my income by $60,000 (significant on top of a $100,000 income), and was awarded “child” support based solely on the fraudulent claim. Left out of the equation were some very significant facts; I was no longer employed at the time of the filing (due to downsizing), and spouse had resigned a $90,000 a year job just prior to filing solely to increase her odds of gaining support. Once again the case is heard months after the fact. Once the “child” support was reduced I was given a credit for the nearly $10,000 in over payments, a credit I was never allowed to use.

Now the court antics start. Judge Falanga learns this is a highly contested divorce. Child custody is the main issue. Judge Falanga ‘asks’ us (not orders) to work out a schedule ‘before leaving the court house’. Wife offers every-other-weekend, I want every other week. Her and her attorney leave the courthouse with the issue unresolved. No penalty for that. Another month goes by, next appearance judge Falanga ‘advices’ us to meet with Lisa Aganasi to mediate a solution. Wife and I agree to let Lisa Asansi to interview the child and see how they feel. Wife changes her mind the next day again without penalty. We are now ordered to a forensic psychologist.  An estimated cost of $8,000 to be paid solely by me out of my severance pay.  The forensic psychologist recommend equal time with both of us. Yet nothing happened.

Forensic psychologist meets with both spouses and children at least twice individually and once to judge the interaction between each parent and the children. Wife is diagnoses with several personality disorders, children request more time with me. Again nothing is done. The judge can’t read this report he ordered because wife won’t consent to it. Our older child is now in therapy after threatening suicide at school.  Finally a law guardian, Cheryl Kreger is appointed to our case. Ms Kreger meets with the children as states they want to continue to live with their mom. Under questioning Ms Kreger admits she never asked the child that question. She never offered every other week with each parent either. She also failed to communicate with daughters therapist. Ms Kreger also overlooks wife’s diagnosis of mental illness.

The case drags on and on with constant bickering and trash talk from wife’s attorney,  Howard Leff, costing our family $1000/hr for the privilege. The children are still stressing. Oldest daughter now hospitalized for an eating disorder. Still no one cares.

Finally, after spending over $100,000 on just my costs I cannot go any further, Judge Falanga orders a trial, then has no time for one. Then he threatens to run up our costs by making us sit idly by for 4-5 hours while our attorneys our on the clock. We attempt, and finally succeed at an ‘agreement’.  More like one was shoved down my throat.

Now I have less custody at a lower frequency than before. I must maintain a suitable house for my children in the same school district as their mom so I can have over night on school nights. I spend roughly 40% of the time with the children but must pay %100 of the child support. It’s hard to entertain kids when even movie tickets would run for the four of us. Despite the fact the children are to receive over $4000 and month in child support they often come over in dilapidated clothes, their pockets are empty, and I’m expected to take them to birthday parties (no present supplied of course), theme parks, and other general things a dad would like to do with his children. I can’t afford it. Meanwhile wife surrounds herself with the latest in HDTV’s, manicures and professional massages. The kids receive no allowances and are often forbidden to enjoy company of their friends.  These children are 15, 13, and 11.

They want to spend more time with me, this is even echoed by their therapist. My oldest is cutting herself. They often must tag along with their mom for an entire weekend while she sleeps with her out of state boyfriend in the presence of our children. I offer to keep them here with me while she dates, but my offers are violently rejected. I’ve asked for more time with the children and receive threats of reduced time in return. If the children speak up they are told their mom will have me arrested if they come over my house. They are also threatened with losses of other privileges if they talk more about it. My oldest jumped from a moving car to escape one of her mother’s beatings. Does this sound like resolution to anyone?

No-Fault divorce – who cares – lets straighten out the children first.