Topic: 2008-2009 Season

Recently, newsday wrote articles that focused on two long island fencing teams.  One about the Centereach girls and another about the Ward Melville boys, targeting both as teams to beat.  Ok, maybe.  In my opinion, they're not the teams to focus on.  The Ward Melville boys remain undefeated so far.  However, they have not met competition yet.  Newsday has scores posted for their meets against Whitman and Hills, two teams that have not proved to be great threats in the past couple of seasons.  No surprise that there was a large margin of victory in both those meets.  I doubt they'll look as powerful against more competitive teams like Commack and Newfield.  The Commack boys also are undefeated, however they have done so against the stronger teams of Newfield and Centereach, both of which they won comfortably.  Despite this article, I stand by my original opinion and believe that Commack boys will beat Melville.  Especially because of one of Melville's key players, senior Joe Leombruno, is rumored to be out for the season.  Foil and epee will be a battle between the two teams but Commack should come out on top with a large sabre win.  

The Centereach girls are not my pick either.  Look for Newfield fighting it out with Melville.  I expect the Melville girls to maintain their dominance of Long Island Fencing but they will not be followed by Centereach. Newfield, who beat Centereach by a comfortable margin, is my pick for second. 

Your initial assessment is on. GNN, South and GC seem to be having good years, as is surprisingly, Oyster Bay.  Jericho lost 4 straight until last night, and both the mens  and womens won. I expect Jericho to barely make the playoffs with a predicted final record of 7-7, 0r 8-6.  GC is NOT what they were last year, and I think North mens will take it this year for Nassau. CSH. Manhasset, Wheatley, not sure, haven't fenced them yet either.

It's pretty obvious that GNN and South are doing well. I've heard they have actual experienced coaches. And I'm pretty sure that they don't stick their tongue out at the opponent on the strip (*ahem* like..Manhassets coach...the younger one..). GC have pretty good fencers but GNN is clearly on the top in my opinion. South...not exactly sure yet but I wouldn't be surprised if they did have good fencers. Difficult for Jericho this year, that's for sure. I know that girls foil there's quite bad so far. 

Oh boy, that coach from Manhasset ATE CROW tuesday night, when Jericho's 7th grader went 3-0 against his mens epee team.  After his first two bouts 5-1 and 5-0, the other starter didn't even want to fence him, so they subbed for him, 5-1. At first when he saw him take the strip, the coach was laughing with his fencer who was at least 6'2" , Basile, 5' sent him packing, yelling and screaming after each bout.  And yes, GNN and GNS have tremendous coaches.  It makes a huge difference at this level.

HAHAHAHA that coach was laughing at his own fencer?? What an encouraging coach. Manhassets boys aren't that good though. This seasons pretty interesting. Basile's 5 ft? I wonder how good he would be if he was just a few inches taller..

just cus your tall does not mean you can fence 

I can tell you that the BEST High School Epee fencer on Long Island is also one of the tallest - Cliff Fishler.  His skiils are by far better than anyone that I have seen fence. And from a technique level, there are only a handful of Epee fencers with real technique fro Nassau.  Not sheer athletic ability, luck, or height, but from a technical level its Fishler (GNS), Phillippou (GC) and Basile (Jericho) that I have seen that have the best technique in Nassau. Lui, Qou and Hong all get honorabe mention, but if you watch the first three, their technique is superior. The others rely on height and reach advantages, combined with high athleticism, and sometimes thats more than technique can overcome. The most exciting one to watch is Basile from Jericho, solely from the standpoint that he is the smallest, and probably the fastest one of the bunch.  Maybe not better, but defintely faster. And he is only in middle school.

I am NOT very impressed with any Epee from Suffolk.  Thorne is very good, Kwabena is very good, Lindquist (IMHO) is very lucky because he has a "sniper" style thats very unorthodox, but sometimes effective. Then again, I don't know many epee's from suffolk. Certainly noy saying Nassau epee is better, but Cliff Fishler is THE BEST hands down.

It is interesting that you would consider Fishler to be the number one epee fencer on long island. First of all, if the Kwabena you refer to is Kwabena Amanquah then I think you have him slightly underrated.  Regardless, I don't believe Kobe is in high school anymore.  As far as I know, he graduated from Brentwood last year.  Thorne is strong, I agree, though he does have significant gaps in his fencing; aspects in which he is very weak.  However, to place him below Cliff Fishler seems inappropriate.  It was less than a month ago when Thorne beat Fishler by a significant 15-7 margin at the Junior Olympic Qualifiers.  Unless he has improved dramatically, I cannot see him being the top epee fencer with such a large loss to a fellow long island fencer. 

 I have to agree with one of your main points though.  The current high school epee fencers just don't seem that impressive.  Unfortunately, gone are the days of Heflich, Sielaff, Somir, Valiunas, McGeveran, and Amanquah, the top suffolk epees from recent memory.  Thorne, Lindquist, O'Garra, and Soria simply do not fully fill those shoes.

I agree with most of your assessments.  However, I have seen both Thorne and Fishler fence.  Fishler won the Div II Gold at the summer nationals. I was there to see it. He is the ONLY current LIHS mens fencer  (aside from Basile who has been invited to train at NYAC) that trains at NYAC. I have seen Cliff have bad days, and I have seen Thorne have good days.  IMHO, they are still pretty far apart. Don't get me wrong, Thorne is a GREAT athlete and very good eppiest (and a great person), but I can't put him in the same field as Fishler.  Now J. Phillippou @ Thorne would be VERY interesting. Assuming that Cliff is on the path towards Olympic training, Phillippou v. Thorne would be exciting to watch.

And this is why I feel strongly that besides the Individual county championships, there should be a combined individual ALL Island Individual Championship as well.  Then we can get to see some very interesting mix and matches.  

And ahhhhhh....yesss...I miss watching Avi fence too.

I am 100% percent positive that Christian Thorne is the 08-09, official long island number 1 epee fencer.  Some of you have clearly been lied to; need I continue to say, told some serious poppy****.  These other inferior names you have all mentioned are no match for HE MAN MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE.  Lets be serious what factual evidence do u have to support your claims? Here is mine.

1. He gets 10x more women then anyone else

2. He can play basketball in the rain and not get wet.

3. Pretzels are his favorite bedtime snack.

So if all you fencers and people who graduated like mad long ago still do not believe me then let me ask you this.  Where is your factual evidence???

Thats debatable. Cliff lost against Thorne in JOs. I even saw the bout. However, I'll agree that both of them are certainly excellent fencers. Personally, I wasn't expecting to see Thorne win--he may have had a lucky bout. But who knows? I dont exactly see Cliff fence Thorne all too often. 

To be honest, who cares what Thornes bedtime snack is..

 I do indeed maintain that Commack is the superior team.  While the final score was 14-13 in favor of Ward Melville, that score was dependent upon a plethora of extremely poor calls and decisions by the director.  I understand that it is common practice amongst fencers to accuse the directors for a loss, however this is one of those rare occasions (though admittedly less rare in high school fencing) that it was the director's fault.  Multiple victories that should have gone in Commack's favor were instead given to Ward Melville.  I'm not saying that the directing wasn't equally poor for both sides.  Simply that Commack suffered in decisive situations, wheareas the majority of calls that Ward Melville lost occured in bouts that were lost definitively regardless of the calls.  For example, in the opening bout, with Paul Schulman ahead of Peter Freis 4-1, Schulman scored what should have been a clear attack in preparation that was either granted to Freiss or thrown out altogether.  While one touch in a 4-1 situation isn't enough to define the entire bout, the number of poor and incorrect calls following was enough to change the outcome of the bout from a 5-1 victory for Schulman to a 5-4 victory for Freiss. 

In another situation, Feigenbaum of Commack was fencing Wheeler of Melville in overtime.  Feigenbaum had changed weapons prior to the start of overtime.  After approximately 30 seconds of fencing, Feigenbaum scored the final touch, apparently winning the bout 3-2.  However, fencer Peter Freiss chose that moment to point out that director David Rabinowitz had failed to test the new weapon before the two fencers had begun.  Upon testing the weapon, it was concluded that it passed all specifications.  However, Rabinowitz annulled the touch anyway and chose to restart the overtime period.  During that second overtime, Wheeler scored and the outcome of the bout was reversed.  I am no expert on the rule book but I question whether annulling a touch proven to be legitimate because of a director's failure to follow proper procedure is the correct course of action.  Either way, it punishes a fencer on strip for the director's mistake. 

I could continue but this response has already been streched beyond intention.  Although improper calls were made in both directions, in Ward Melville's case, such calls were in bouts that did not end close (ie, Sam Austin vs. CJ Junior, Ryan Murphy vs. Robert Sampson; bouts that ended with a margin of or greater than 5-2) and for Commack, many of those poor calls were in bouts that were won/lost by a single touch.  If the two teams fence as they did at that meet, I expect the next one to go in favor of commack 

(alumni fencer) Whether you intended to or not, it appears as if you are directly accusing Ward Melville fencer Peter Freiss of cheating by saying he waited to tell the director that he didn't test weight until after Feigenbaum got the touch.  However, it was brought to Peter's attention after the director had said "ready, fence", therefore Peter had to wait until a stop in the bout (the first stop was Feigenbaums touch).  Peter attempted to get the directors attention before the director started overtime but was unsuccessful.  Peter felt he needed to inform the director of this issue of the weight (as I'm sure many teammates would) and let the director make his decision.  Just because the directors decision didn't necessarily go in your favor, does not give you the right to point fingers at members of the opposing team and accuse them of cheating.  Peter was merely relaying information to the director, and if you have a problem with the decision the director made then you should focus your anger at him, instead of wrongfully accusing a member of the Ward Melville team.  Peter didn't wait for Feiganbaum to get a touch; it was just coincidently the first light that went on and the first chance for Peter to tell the director.  Maybe you should get all of your information before you (incorrectly) accuse a fencer of cheating and post this incorrect accusation on a public website that anyone can read.  It is atrocious that you would do this as this could give people a bad image of Peter all because you feel the need to blame someone for your teams loss.  Peter is an honest person and he wouldn't do something like this.  So for you to attempt to tarnish his image on a public message board is horrible.  I hope you think before posting next time. 

 You're right.  In this instance, I did not choose my words as carefully as I would have liked.  I did not mean to insult fencer Peter Freiss in any way.  I should not have explained it to be a choice that Freiss made.  The blame, if there is any, is not his but rather the director's for mistaken procedure and a questionable interpretation and application of the rules.  In fact, if anything, I respect Freiss more for pointing it out as a way to defend his team and insure that the rules are followed correctly in an otherwise poorly run event. There was no accusation intended.  Rather, the only reason I mentioned Peter Freiss by name was to point out that neither Jeff Salmon nor Darren Wallach seemed aware that this mistake had occurred and so they were not involved in the decision.  Freiss brought valid information to the director's attention and the director made a decision on an extremely questionable situation without understanding the actual rule.  I cannot criticize the director for not knowing the rule, as I do not know the rule for that specific situation either.  However, since I am assuming you are a member of the Ward Melville team, you know that Jeff Salmon is very experienced in the fencing community and so I imagine that he does know the rule.  

Your reaction was quite impressive, as I suspected you posted with no intent to impugn.  This should reflect fencing as a whole, a gentlemen's sport where courtesy and sportsmanship still prevail.

On the subject of directing, it's rather painful to watch many of the calls made, and the terrible inconsistency from bout to bout, meet to meet.  Unlike a tournament, HS bouts have no DEs where someone can make up for poor directing in a 5 touch bout, which can easily be skewed by bad directing.  Too many close bouts are decided by bad calls rather than good fencers, and this is something to remember when discussing who is better than whom.

On the other hand, the reactions of fencers has been inspirational.  They keep on bouting, shrug off the bad calls, and do their best.  Bad calls are a part of every sport, and the will to fight for every touch speaks to the heart of these fencers. 

The annulment of the touch was incorrect. It was clearly the wrong call….I spoke to both coaches and both indicated that the referee did a good job other than that call.  Your assessment of the performance of the referee is not shared by the two coaches involved.

How could the Commack coach let this happen?  Where was he? Was there a gag in the Commack fencers mouth? I (as a Fencer or a Coach) would have been screaming about the injustice at the time…Not waiting until the meet is over and I’ve lost to voice my outrage…