Topic: 2008-2009 Season

Can't argue completly, but, also Collins went from dead last the year before to 4th last year.  Not a bad improvement.  Srey, Sari, Appelman; sure I'll put them a notch above on the overall, but, on any given Saturday...who knows. 

As far as the top 3 arguement goes: 

That was the seeding before the 4 way barrage.  But, that's what happens sometimes.  No compliants. 

And the finish:  1. Levy

                         2. Appelman

                         3. Beaulac

                         4. Collins

But, that was last year.  Let's se what happens with the all new team/individual format this year.  By the way only 1 fencer for each weapon in the #3 spot during the team competiton moves up to the individual contest.  4 #1's and 3 #2's I believe.  Should be interesting.     

You are forgetting April Xiong of Jericho.  She beat Sari, Srey and Collins this year.  She will be in the top 5.  Not sure how she did against Appelman.

Fair enough.  I don't know of her that much.  That was a 4-5 bout(Collins v. Xiong) as I recall.  But, yeah, put her in thet agroup as well.  I'm sure there are others I'm not as familiar with.  It will be interesting to see if one or more of the favorites don't make the individual cut on Saturday after the team portion in the am. 

 Thats because there werent any meet deciding, questionable calls. Last night's meet was actually directed pretty well. 

GMAFB  since when is a mistake made in the first round "match deciding". You have no idea what would have happened differently over the next 21 to 23 bouts…..Note: If a protest had been lodged properly and up held (I’m sure it would have)  the meet would have been re-fenced from that point forward…..

 Can you please stop trying to get into an argument in a fencing forum? It sounded like you were calling Commack sore losers with that post, and I was merely defending them. 

"I'm surprised we didn't see a post from COM complaining about the Ref!"

Come on man...

 The format is the Intercollegiate Fencing Association format. Colleges and Suffolk county have run their championships this way for over 50 years.

 The format is one round of a duel meet. 9 bouts, Three Sabre, Three Foil and Three Epee. Whatever team has the most wins at the end of the day is the team champion. Each Weapon has a Strong Slot, A Medium Slot and a Weak Slot. The fencer in that slot will fence the same slot on another team. Every Team fences every team in this format. So each fencer will have 8 matches (at least, depending on incomplete team fencers)

 The Top 4 Records from the Strong Pool

The Top 3 Records from the Medium Pool

and The Top 1 record from the weak pool will be seeded into an individual final. It will be done in a pool format.

The Better Fencers are rewarded in this format by having more reserved spots in the finals.

-Dennis Kolakowski 

Centerreach High School

 Any predicitions on winners of Strong/Med/Weak for all weapons boys and girls?

Great Neck North. 9am Start. Saturday Feb 7th.

-Dennis Kolakowski

You don't jump on a forum and blame a ref for a lose and not except to get greif! The poster professed to have seen the bad call(s). Well the only people that would have been at Commack are Commack parents or Ward Melville parents....It doesn't take much to figure out what camp the poster was from! 

"Can you please stop trying to get into an argument in a fencing forum?"

No!

OK.  I don't care for this format too much because a strong fencer from one team may not make the "cut", whereas a medium fencer from another team, that the strong fencer routinely defeats during the season, can make the cut.  I personally like the USFA method much better.

Anyway, what determines the level of a fencers ability for initial seeding? Does the fencers team coach make a determination who is strong, medium, weak?  Is it based on the seasons cumulative record?  Or is it based on performance in the team events at the championships?

I don't care for the format either for a number of reasons. First, it ignores an entire season of fencing in favor of one day, and any fencer can have a bad day.  It would one thing if it was a tournament, but this is to cover a whole season of fencing when it doesn't.

 Two, it allows coaches/fencers to "game" the format by putting a strong fencer in the medium slot.  Most wouldn't consider doing something like that, but some would. 

Three, five touch bouts aren't a serious way for individual fencers to challenge each other.  It's easier for a fencer to get a couple of lucky touches, but very hard to sustain it for 15 touches, making it a much better test of fencers. 

Four, the team competition has its limitations because it covers 3 weapons, 3 positions and has to go through everyone.  But for individual competition, it never lets a fencer warm up and get into the groove.  It shows who fences best cold off the bench, but that really isn't the test of a good fencer.  It may be necessary in team competition, for lack of a better way to do it, but it's not necessary for individual competition.

Five, it could end up with some bizarre results, such as a second level fencer on a team making it to the top 8 when a better fencer from the same team doesn't.  This is a very real possibility, and yet would produce ridiculous results.  What purpose is there to having a format that would freeze out a better fencer in the strong position in favor of a lesser fencer in the medium position?

Six, once the final 8 are selected per the format, it's my understanding that they then fence each other in a pool, though how this is done (is it 1 pool of 8, 2 of 4?) is unclear as yet.  But no matter how it's done, all the problems with pool fencing (fine for seeding, but poor for determining better fencers) happen again, making it twice exposed to the same flaws and problems. 

 Since this is the way it's going to happen, I hope it works out properly and doesn't end up with some fencers getting screwed or some bizarre results.  But I see no reason why a format that lends itself to so many problems and issues should be used.  Even if it works out well this time, it's still a bad format for this purpose and should be scrapped.  The basic pool and DE format is a far superior method, or even just DEs based on seeding from the regular season record.

Agreed 100% with EVERYTHING you said.  I am SURE there will be some ridiculous results.

Let me start by saying I’m not trying to start a argument..only point out some facts….

1.       The Intercollegiate Fencing Association (a.k.a. IFA) is the Oldest college tournament in the country ( any sport) ,over 115 years.  All of the IVY schools belong plus many power house Fencing programs. The IFA as a tournament is considered the toughest collegiate tournament in the country. The IFA has been running the tournament in this fashion since the early 50’s and possibly earlier. Until the early 90’s this tournament and the individual results were used in the selection process for the NCAA tournament.

2.        Suffolk County has been running it’s tournament this way since Fencing started in Suffolk in the early 1960’s.

This tournament emphasizes TEAM. The third man on the TEAM is as important as the First man.  The coach gets to decide who fences in what slot.  You are correct there are games that can be played and are played.  Coaches have to be careful that the games they play don’t hurt the team results and their Fencers chances of doing well/make the individual finals.

It is better to figure out who has the best team by playing a single elimination tournament? Some say no.

As far as qualification for the individual’s is concerned, the best fencers should be in the Strong and Middle groups. If you do well against your peers then you are rewarded by making the finials…Taking more from the stronger pools and less from the weaker ones makes sense.  You want the better Fencers in the finals.

It’s different…….1/2 the people hated the old system and ½ the people will find fault with the new one! Can’t please everyone all the time…..