Topic: 2008-2009 Season

Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else but I just want to be clear.

All Conference, All County and AllLI are based on the regular season's individual records.  Right?

Does the regular season team records count towards which team makes it to the Long Island Championship?or is it just Saturday's tournament?

While HS fencing is a "team" sport, very much like tennis, it is solely based on the individual's performance. The USFA format is much more conducive for individual results, thereby helping the team, than the NCAA format.

 Kudos.  You obviously understand the concept.  Is it perfect? Maybe not.  But it is the best format to accomplish the task.  It shows which teams are deepest, not which team has 2 or 3 or the best guys  who can win 1/3 of a meet themselves.  After all, HS fencing is all about the TEAM, not the individual.  In respect to the Individual tournament, we are trying to put less emphasis on it.  It is not the main event, just a mere bonus to the top fencers.  And agreed, if you are put in the strong slot on your team, you may be your team's best 'epee' or 'sabre' fencer, but you may be weak in relation to the other strongest fencers in the county.  And in theory, those 4 fencers that make it out of the strong slot, should be the top 4 in the individual tournament anyway.  We don't really HAVE to add any fencers from the mid and weak slots, but we do because it 1) can allow for an upset 2) rewards the top fencer's amongst their "skill level."  If you are in the strong slot, and you lose to everyone else in the strong slot, do you really deserve to be in the Individual tournament over some one in the mid slot or weak slot who beat everyone else in their respective slot.  I have fenced under this format myself, in the weak slot and in the strong slot (personally I made it into the Individuals every year no matter which slot I was in, finishing 6th, 4th, and 1st).  "Weird" things do an will happen, not just under this format, but in virtually ANY tournament.  Look at the US OLYMPIC women's sabre team  Individually they swept the medals (Gold, Silver and Bronze), but as a squad, they did not take Gold or Silver.  How could the best three fencer's in their event, not win the team event?!  This is a fun tournament, that will include EVERY TEAM, and will determine which team is deepest.  In respect to it not taking the season into consideration, that is not really relevant.  It gives every team an equal opportunity, and the teams that faired the best seasons, should fair best in the tournament.  I am excited.  

I'm assuming you mean Nassau here inrespect to the team events,  so, It's both.  During the regular season a team earns 4 points per meet won.  So, 16 meets times 4 is 64 total points for the season.  the county tourney on Saturday is slightly different.  All 9 teams will fence each other fencers 1-9(3 sabre, 3 foil, 3 epee) in order earning 1point per bout won for a possible 72 points on the day.  The highest total points from the season and tourney will go to the LI Championship.  So, with a tight season finish, it is possible for a team to finsh 2nd in the season an 2nd in the tournament and have the highest total points and go to the LI Championship.  In effect rewarding the most consistent and deepest team.  Rather than a team that has one great day. 

the all county and all li honors will be based on the season stats.

Thanks. This makes more sense.

It is 5 points for Team win in the regular season not 4.

-Dennis Kolakowski

We ignore nothing. There are seperate awards for Regular Season play. Four First Team All County (Top two are all LI) 4 Second Team and 4 Honorable mention. Nassau has never run a standard USFA style tournament. Seeding based on the regular season can also be played with or "game" it by avoiding the no. 1 on each team or bouts that your fencer may drop. It happens. But the numbers show that when a coach tries to "game" it usually backfires. Bizarre Results? If you check back very often in the previous format alot of first team and second team all county did not make individual finals. Also people like ashley titan, stephanie auito did not fence. The Individual result was killed due to a lack of cooperation by the coaches. It requires 18 strips 18 referees and the names of the competitors before hand. Coaches did not bring eqiupment of the names of the competitors so thats why we were delayed. The number of strips and the lack of space between them is also unsafe. Under our current format we have saved the county money by moving everything to one day and have increased the amount of fencing during the season. It is clear, it is a pool of 8 to be double stripped alternating with the other final of the same weapon.

Formats do not make or break champions. If you are the best fencer then you just do your job.

Lets look at Newfield a few years ago. All three sabre guys made it to the county finals finish 1st 2nd and 4th. All three were strong fencers. One went to princeton, one to air force and another to sacred heart. Or we can look at ward melville who routinley put up all three of the fencers. It rewards the deepest team.

If Nassau ever wants to produce the fencers and teams it should, and challenge suffolk we need to stop the self pity and victimization. No one is trying to "screw" anyone. The rules are known its your coaches job to know and understand them. We do have some poor referees, this format helps negate their impact. And a bad referee usually makes misatkes both ways.

Very good points coach K.  From a team perspective, your comments make a lot of sense.

"If Nassau ever wants to produce the fencers and teams it should, and challenge suffolk we need to stop the self pity and victimization. No one is trying to "screw" anyone."

Some random thoughts.  That certain teams happen to be very close to, or have coaches from, Mission or North Shore, may be more of a reason why they have better fencers than others.  Are you suggesting that this one competition will magically create "depth" in a team?  Some teams have a majority, if not all, of their fencers off the street, with no training beyond what they learn on the team.  No format is going to change that.  To suggest so is silly.

If one wants to test the depth of a team, the best and only way to do so is the standings for a season of fencing.  One day, no matter what format, does not compensate for how a team did during the course of the season.  This is one of those arguments that sound good but doesn't bear up well when looked at closely.  I might add that no format tests depth when it's limited to 5 bout touches in any event.

While the new format may be easier for the coaches, and less expensive for Nassau County, that hardly seems to bear on whether it's better for fencers, which is the point of this exercise.  Perhaps you've forgotten that it's about the fencers and not the convenience of the coaches? Not all coaches agreed with this format, but a majority decided to use it.  Whether this is because they agreed that it is the best way to conduct the competition or it was easier for them we will never know for sure.

But then, the issues raised really had nothing to do with the team aspect in the first place, even though you've chosen to make it appear as if they did.  While this is a competition for the teams, it is also an individual competition, and if you're going to run an individual competition, there's nothing wrong with trying to run it in the way that is best for the fencers involved.  Do you suggest that the three Ward Melville fencers would have attended Suffolk Community College had it not been for this format?  If not, then what was your point in including their colleges?

And finally, reasonable people can disagree about the best format for the competition.  But resorting to name calling, with words like "self-pity", "victimization" and "screw", is a sign of ignorance.  You should consider that before responding to a valid argument this way.  It reflects poorly on you.

You and Dennis obviously have a issue on a personal  level….that aside….The regular season is not abandoned with this format or any other format for that matter…At the end of the year you crown a league champion and you recognize individuals with all-county selection.

What this format MAY (and I did write MAY) force coaches to look at their teams as a hole, not just the first 1 or 2 in each weapon.   More time may be spent developing  all nine fencers, why because now it matters if you want to win counties…That will force the level of fencing up!

It’s not what you have done in the past…..This format for selecting a team champion has been proven over time…at least 50 years.  It’s hard to refute the fact that it works…..

What does Section XI have that Section VIII doesn’t?

Coaches that don’t publicly in-fight….It’s funny how dysfunctional you are.

Section XI have better referee’s. Better referee’s force better fencing.

What about the underclassman tournament then?  What format will that use?  There is no "team" competition to "slot" fencers so how will they know "who" to fence?

They should have kept the format used last year.

Not true.  I did not, and would not, call Coach K names.  I merely hope that he can refrain from name-calling so that the discussion can be based on reason and not anger.  I hope he will see this and we can move beyond it.

Does anyone know who the top teams are heading into counties on saturday and what their records are?

Good Question.  Also, when/how do we find out individual honors?  Could be interesting.  I think there are some new people this year who will surprise y'all.  Hopefully it bodes well for LI High School fencing.  It would be exciting to see the younger guys put us on the map.  

BTW, I didn't think Coach K said anything to offend anyone.  Not sure why things got Rgumentative.   

Good Question.  Also, when/how do we find out individual honors?  Could be interesting.  I think there are some new people this year who will surprise y'all.  Hopefully it bodes well for LI High School fencing.  It would be exciting to see the younger guys put us on the map.  

BTW, I didn't think Coach K said anything to offend anyone.  Not sure why things got Rgumentative.   

Srry, don't follow. 

Anyway,now that the seasonis over let's hear guesses on county honors...

nassau girl sabres

nassau Goils

nassau girl epees

 nassau boy sabres

Nassau Boils (once again, sorry)

Nassau boy sabres

Suffolk....

same

Drumroll......................

With regard to the Counties format:

I think the format works well for the team competition. Each slot goes against the same slot on the other teams and the team with the best overall depth should perform well.

 However, for the individuals, the format is very flawed. The main problem is the number of fencers promoted from each slot. It is very unfair to the first stringers with only 4 being promoted to the top 8. You will definitely end up with 2 or 3 fencers for each weapon in the top 8 that don't belong there and 2 or 3 fencers that are truly in the top 8 in the county and don't make it. There is no way that the number 3 second stringer and the number 1 third stringer are better than the 5th first stringer. There are few (probably none) third stringers that beat the top fencer on the opposing team more than half the time during the season. If you want to use this format for individuals you need to increase the number of first stringers promoted and/or decrease the second strings to be more fair. The way it stands now, the second slot is by far the best place to be to make it into the top 8.

If you want to stick with only 8, you should use 6-1-1 or a minimum of 5-2-1 from the three slots. A better option might be to increase the number promoted and do a round of pools to eliminate the bottom performers. For example you can promote 6-3-1 from the team slots and do a round of two pools of 5 and eliminate the bottom 4  leaving 6 finalists to battle it out.

I'ver seriously tried to understand what benefit there is in the individual competition to the 4-3-1 format.  I still can't see any benefit whatsoever, and plenty of problems, explanations and excuses.  Just no good reason to use it.

If the point is to limit it to the 8 strongest fencers, then select the fencers with the top 8 records for the season with the minimum 32 bouts. Simple, no shenanigans and based upon a fencer's ability over an extended period of time and with all skill levels.  No fencer, over the course of a 32+ bout season, can hide a lack of skill in a winning record.

Perhaps I'm still missing something, but everything said so far about the individual format is more along the lines of an excuse and apology than a reason why anyone would want to use this format for an individual competition.  I'm still open to any reasons that haven't been said, or that I've misunderstood something, but so far I can't see a single thing that makes this format a good choice.