Topic: 2008-2009 Season

OK, thats it!.  Parry DOES have the solution.  Top 8 season high record holders in each weapon to duke it out.  Its the ONLY format that makes sense if you don't go with a full blown USFA type tournament.

Good job Parry!  This way, the coaches can keep to the doofy format that will be used tomorrow.

The kids with the best season recorders are rewarded with all county honors.. The placement in the in the team event is the coaches chose, I’m sure the season record is considered. That’s where the season record relevance does and should end.

I agree that the 4-3-1 appears to be off….maybe  5-2-1 al thought that doesn’t seem right either…I would think that a 10 person final makes more sense 5-3-2.

No formula based on "strength" level of a fencer on a squad is right.  Take the top 12 winning records over 32 meets, and have a fence off. A prelim round of all 12 fencers fencing each other, then top 50% fence off in final. This way, if a #2 fencer on a team is one of the top 12 winning records in his/her weapon, they get to compete.

 I agree that this format does not make any sense for the individuals and that seeding/promotion based on the season record makes more sense or should at least be factored in. I was just trying to provide a more fair way to determine the county individual qualifiers if we must use this format. A 6-1-1 promotion will better insure the top fencers get a chance to compete for the individual championship. The proposed 4-3-1 method definitely insures it will be unfair with top fencers getting left out and undeserving fencers getting in. Expanding the number getting promoted will help make it fairer.

OK, now that all has been discussed and debated, let's move on.

 Good luck to all of the fencers, coaches and fans tomorrow.  Let's keep it clean, fair and fun.  Remember why we love this sport.  Applaud the winners as our heroes. And remember, even those who sit on the bench could be playing basketball but chose the superior route.   If we don't stick together in these times the sport is in danger of getting cut.  You get it??

Another great Season in the books.  the tourney...eh?  New format+unforeseen problems+gliches=fubar.  But, things happen and we move on. 

Mission now:  Nassau champs must defeat there Suffolk rivals in the LI Campionship.  That and only that is the focus of all Nassau fencers.  To parahrase Buddy Ryan,"The other county must go down and they must go down hard."  Or Kurt Russell's portrayal of Herb Brooks,"I am sick and tired of hearing how great the Suffolk teams are.  They've had there time.  This is your time Nassau." 

There's a whole year till next season.  Hopefully the things that went awry will get fixed.  Things that worked will continue.

 hopefully we we'll get a tenth team and have two divions of 5 for the county of Nassau.  Maybe an incomplete team can complete itself and compete as a school team.  What a great season that would be if all the incomplete teams completed themeselves with full teams. 

It's always darkest before the dawn.  Things got pretty dark on Saturday.  Could a bright dawn be on the horizon?  We shall see.

what do you guys think of the suffolk county results?

What are the Suffolk County results?  Any upsets?  Can't find anything in Newsday. 

vernon ogara won mens epee
stuart holmes won mens foil
sam austin won mens saber

and ward melville won the mens team event

 as for the womens individuals im not sure who won, but i know that ward melville won the team event

Actually the information is not correct Men's:

Epee ogarra, Foil Holmes, Sabre was Peter Freiss, Team WM, second was tie Newfield and Commack

 Women's

Epee Olivia Weller (hunt), Foil Ginny Siskidis (wm), Sabre Britany Cubano (new), Team WM second Centereach, third Newfield 

It would be very thoughtful if some coach could post all the stats, team and individual, for the seasons and championship tournaments (all the teams, not just the winners) for each county here.  While Newsday can't be bothered, some of us would like to know what actually happened.

It would also be interesting to find out whether a protest has been filed for Nassau, whether the LI Championship will happen, whether GC or GNS is the Nassau Champ. 

Great Neck South and Garden City are Co-League Dual Meet Season Champions, Co-Nassau County Team Tournament Champions.  Great Neck South is the over-all 'Conference' Champions/Nassau Team Rep. in the LICs.  For those arguing that the "fence-off" was not the correct procedure to follow to determine a winner, Great Neck South beat GC by a larger margin of victory during their two head to head meets during the season.  Typically that is the first step in determining who prevails.  So even if there was no fence-off, GNS would still be the team going to the LICs.  Great job by Garden City!  They were the underdogs this year.  GNS was expected, and probably should have gone undefeated 16-0, but mistakes were made and they were not completely prepared all season long.  I think it is hard to argue that South does not have the deepest team in Nassau.  Good luck Nassau!!!

Actually, so everyone is clear -

GNS beat GC 16 vs 11

GC beat GNS 15 vs 13 

TYPICALLY that is how the winner is chosen? Then what was the point of ALL DAY Saturday? Typically does not apply to this case. IF GNS should have gone 16-0, then why attempt to put a #2 fencer in a #1 position at the "fence off"? Lack of confidence, loyalty and sportsmanship there. Lack of those are not qualities of a true fencer. P.S. GC beat GNS Saturday 5 vs 4 and GNS should have been disqualified to begin before Saturday even began, but that does not matter does it?

It is quite obvious that you are scraping for ammunition to justify GC's loss.  You are speaking about a set of rules and circumstances you do not comprehend.  I do not expect you to completely understand them because they have not been explained.  In the same breath, don't try to argue something you do not understand completely or have all the facts about.  The point of Saturday was to determine a Nassau County Tournament Champion, solely based off of that days results (the total wins a team collected from each bout won throughout the day).  At the end of the day GC and GNS were tied in points for the day, so both are considered the Team Tournament Champions. End of conversation.  Moving on to the next issue.  The decision for who is the "Conference" champions is based off of the total points scored during dual meet season (each team gets 5 points for every meet that they win) COMBINED with the total points scored one the day of the team tournament (I explained that point system earlier).  In this case, GC and GNS both had 14 wins from the dual meet season (that = 70 points for each team) and both teams earned the same amount of wins during the team tournament.  When you combine all the points, the two teams are tied for the Conference Title, which deems which team will represent Nassau in the LICs.  So how do you break the tie?? Typically you would look at the teams margin of victory between their two dual meets, at the point the winning team won the 14th bout, NOT the overall meet score. But for some reason, Mike Kreidman (Interim President of the Coaches Assoc. and GC coach) decided to have the teams fence-off.  Again, there was no "attempt" to switch the fencers.  I know the team and coaches intentions because as a referee and member of the Tournament Organizing Commitee, the GNS coach (who does not know virtually anything about fencing or specific tournament rules) asked me IF fencer's were allowed to change positions.  I answered his question, explaining that they could NOT, and he responded stating he didn't think they could.  At that time he advised the team members who would be fencing (Mr. Hong).  You can choose to believe that the GNS team used psychological tact or "attempted" cheating, but where is your "burden of proof?"  You cannot prove what was going on in the coach OR Mr. Fishler's head.  There is "reasonable doubt." Mr. Fishler may have unintentionally began hooking up to fence (which we explained earlier that there is no penalty for that), or maybe he was playing a psychological game, but in any circumstance, you cannot prove what his motive was, thus being unable to prove there was in fact an "attempt" to cheat.  So, honestly, STOP with the whimpering.  You are extremely immature and wholly unprofessional yourself; cursing at an official because you could not properly prove your point is not showing good "sportsmanship."  If you're not getting anywhere in the courtroom, do you tell the prosecutor or judge that they are "clearly a f*cking idiot?"  Let's try and have SOME couth.  

I HAVE NO HORSE IN THIS RACE I DO NOT FAVOR EITHER GC OR GNS ALTHO I DO HAVE A INTEREST IN A NASSAU COUNTY TEAM AND NASSAU COUNTY FENCING.

SEVERAL THINGS YOU HAVE STATED ARE INCORRECT IF NOT OUT AND OUT LIES OR YOU HAVE A LACK OF FENCING KNOWLEDGE. I CHALLENGE YOU TO PRODUCE ONE RULE OR FENCING SITUATION THAT HAS EVER USED "MARGIN OF VICTORY" TO DETERMINE A VICTOR IN A TEAM FENCING EVENT. I'LL EVEN GIVE YOU A BIG WINDOW TO FIND IT. HOW ABOUT SINCE THE BEGINING OF FENCING. AGAIN YOU MUST BE ONE OF THE OFFICALS OR COACHES AT THE EVENT WHO SIMPLY INVENTED SOMETHING THAT SUITED YOUR PURPOSE.

MR KRIEDMAN IS A COACH AND THEREFORE HAS NO AUTHORITY TO DECIDE ANYTHING. AS A MATTER OF FACT HE IS SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED FROM MAKING ANY DECISIONS BY EVEN THE MOST BASIC OF FENCING OR ANY SPORTS RULES.

IF YOU KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT FENCING YOU WOULD KNOW THAT ONLY THE BOUT COMMITTEE CAN MAKE DECISIONS DURING A TOURNAMENT. I WAS THERE AND THERE WAS NO BOUT COMMITTEE.

YOU WERE A REFEREE AND A MEMBER OF THE TOURNAMENT ORGANIZING COMMITTEE????????

AS YOU SHOULD KNOW AS A RFEREE YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BOTH. AND AS YOU ALSO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN AS A REFEREE YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE ANSWERED THE GNS COACH. YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN TO REFER HIM TO THE BOUT COMMITTEE.

PLEASE SIMPLY LOOK AT THE SUFFOLK COUNTY RESULTS HELD THE SAME DAY AS OUR EVENT. LOOK AT THE SABRE RESULTS. TWO FENCER'S TIED, EACH HAD ONE LOSS , THERE WAS NO FENCE OFF, WHY? BECAUSE HEAD TO HEAD ONE FENCER HAD BEATEN THE OTHER AND SO HE WAS THE VICTOR. HEAD TO HEAD THAT DAY IS THE TIE BREAKER NOT YOUR FANTASY "MARGIN OF VICTORY".

ALSO AS A REFEREE YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT IN FENCING YOU DO NOT EVEN HAVE TO ACTUALLY CHEAT, 5.66.1 " JUST THE ATTEMPT TO CHEAT", RESULTS IN A BLACK CARD. A MIND GAME???

ARE YOU SERIOUS OR SHOULD WE ALL LAUGH. WE WERE ALL THERE WE ALL SAW HIM HOOK UP TO FENCE, WETHER INTENTIONAL OR NOT THERE WAS AN "ATTEMPT" TO CHEAT. PLEASE, YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY SLANTED TOWARDS GNS AND TO SAY ANYTHING ELSE WOULD BE A FALSEHOOD.

HOPEFULLY YOU TAKE THIS AS CONSTRUCTIVE CRITISIM SINCE I AM SIMPLY TRYING TO STATE THE FACTS AND THE RULES OF FENCING, A SPORT I LOVE, AND NOT TRYING TO INSULT ANYONE. I KNOW YOU WERE NOT SPEAKING ABOUT ME ABOVE SINCE I SPOKE TO NO ONE SO THEREFORE I CURSED NO ONE.

WITH OVER 35 YEARS OF FENCING EXPERIENCE AT LOCAL, NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL LEVELS. I SIMPLY WATCHED EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED AND COULD NOT BELIEVE MY EYES.

PLEASE, SIMPLY KNOW THE RULES. AND IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING SIMPLY ADMIT IT. THAT IS NOT A DISGRACE. IF YOU DO MAKE A MISTAKE JUST MAKE SURE YOU FIX IT AND DO THE RIGHT THING. DO NOT TRY TO MAKE THINGS UP, AS YOU HAVE.

I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT GC AND GNS ARE CO-CHAMPIONS FOR 2009, A GOOD START. NOW THEY NEED TO COMPLETE THE CORRECTION AND HAVE GC MEET THE SUFFOLK CHAMP.