Topic: Nassau County Championship Abomination

Shame on the Nassau County people in charge of todays out of control event at GNN High School.  Shame on those coaches that also allowed it to happen. I will refrain from calling people out, but todays event was the ABSOLUTE worst event I have attended in over 20 years of fencing.

The facility was fine, the GNN people were hospitable and friendly.  Even the refereeing was not as bad as in the past. I am focusing on the event adminstration and coaches (because they too let this happen). Parents coaching teams?, obvious #1 slot fencers purposesly put into #2 slots to skew the results? (and in one case it was MORE than OBVIOUS), and finally - NO INDIVIDUAL tourney, as promised, because of what was called "a computer glitch" that would have forced all the fencers who qualified to allegedly wait over an hour for seeding, but by the time it was announced, it was already 8pm.

Also, how can it be that the GNS and GNN coaches failed to not only attend the coaches meeting on thursday, but also failed to submit their rosters on thursday as per the deadlines agreed upon in advance?  Then how can those two schools NOT forefeit their first round bouts when they handed in their rosters 15 minutes before the start of the actual event?

You can BS the kids, but you CAN'T BS me.

8 fencers in each weapon got absolutely SCREWED by the people running the event. If you can't get your act together, the don't do it!  You have absolutely NO business running a fencing event, especially one where the kids worked their tails off to make the "alleged individual round", after changing the format from last year claiming it to be fair. And THIS WAS the format you agreed to, wasn't it?

Now I know why fencing in Suffolk has a much better reputation.

How can the coaches (all of them) allow the event to be run like it was. The individual tourney would have only taken less than an hour more with 8 fencers in a pool for each weapon.  Plus, how do you let a parent coach a High School team when a) they are not employed by the respective school district, b) they do NOT possess the necessary first aid as is required by section VIII, and c) even after a parent complained, the complaining parent was escorted away from the area and the other parent kept coaching.

I don't know who is at the top of the responsibility chain, but they must STEP DOWN immediately. 

Go ahead, take your shots at me, but you already did your damage.

I am filing a complaint with Section VIII because those of you in charge cannot seem to get it right or lack the courage to speak up to straighten it out.  I am embaressed for Nassau County High School fencing, and feel terrible for the kids.

Congrats to the winners today in the team events.  Those were well deserved.

It was a disaster.  The team competition itself took 9 hours.  After round 5-6, every one was exhausted from fencing for 3 minutes every hour.  The only excitement after that was the fence off between GC and GNS (who should have forfeited the first round rather than make everyone else wait an hour in the beginning), and that's only because they had so much to fence for.  It was a great fence off, but it was wrong to make them do it after 9 hours of fencing.  And, if I'm correct, both GC and GNS lost to OB in the first two rounds of the competition, but it was essentially impossible to make up the points in this format.

As for the individual, there was none.  NONE! Yet it would have been a joke by the time it would have happened, more than 10 hours after the start. The test isn't to see who can stay awake the longest.  Nor would it have been right to change the rules at the end, which they suggested they were going to do by using the standings from the team instead of having an individual round.  There were fencers who fenced well over their heads to get into the individual competition, and will never have the chance.

There was one flagrant attempt to game the system, not merely by putting a fencer into the wrong slot, which skewed the results in that slot, and then later by trying to switch him into the strong slot for the fence off.  That should have resulted in a forfeit of the bout for trying to cheat.  But those who played the system suffered no penalty, so there's no reason not to ignore the rules in Nassau County.  There were also some minor attempts to game the system, but it ended up not mattering since there was no individual championship.

I only saw or heard of a couple of truly horrible calls, so the directing seemed fairly good.  Not great, but not terrible for the most part.  The only glaring problem was matches that didn't start for 15 minutes because there was no director, which started happening toward the end.  Even the directors couldn't handle the length of the competition.  The teams were dead by the 8th round.  As far as I could see, nothing that happened after the 6th or 7th round mattered, as most of the fencers were too worn out to care anymore.  No more cheering.  Some kids were actually sleeping in their seats. This became a test of endurance and boredom.  The audience was in pain, sitting for 10 hours on wood bleachers. 

The attempt at the end to spin this as if it was some great success was offensive.  There should have been an apology rather than the coaches slapping themselves on their back and giving themselves awards.  Of course, no one could hear it since the microphone was broken and the megaphone stunk.

This was a horrible end to a fine season of fencing, and there was nothing about this competition that didn't bring shame on Nassau County fencing.  People fenced their hearts out and deserved better.  Even if there had been no glitches or unnecessary delays, this would have been at absolute best an 8-9 hour fiasco.  No spin, excuses or blame can change that.  I'm sure that the advocates of this format will come up with excuses and finger pointing, but like Pisteoff, I'm not buying.  The fencers deserved better, and this competition failed them.

The coaches of the two teams should have had the entries in the computer in advance, but to argue that the teams should have been required to forfeit the first round on account of this mistake in the first year of a brand new format is absurd.  Penalizing the kids on the teams?  Is that what HS sports is supposed to be about?  And, even if forfeits were awarded, would it have allowed the tournament to begin any earlier?  I think not.  You would still have to enter the respective rosters. 

The format was great.  It allowed for a lot of fencing, much of it spectacular.  Was it perfect?  No.  I don't know why they had to have a meeting between the coaches and directors before the fence off that seemed to last for 30 to 40 minutes.  Did they neglect to plan in advance for what would happen in the event of a tie?  Nor do I know why no announcement was made as to the tie between GC and South and how it was going to be resolved.  Those in the crowd were in the dark about this and had to hear what was going on from the fencers on both teams through word of mouth. 

 Finally, it is a shame that they couldn't go forward with the individual events.       

I COMPLETELY agree with this. It was preposterous, and terrible. And I believe that it wasn't fair at all to put their best fencers in the #2 slot. That's just unfair. Strategy? There's something called an HONOR system which correlates with uh, I don't know, honesty?? So, NO it was not fair for coaches to put their best fencers in the 2nd slot. It was very, very, unfair for the teams who put their best fencers in the proper place. 

And you know what else? Many people were aiming for individuals, and achieved their goal. That's why fencers fenced beyond their potential. That was the goal. But no, no individuals at all. So much for the new system. Personally, I was exhausted afterwards. Seriously, the sabres didn't even fence for 3 minutes every hour. I even saw the performance become lackluster in the last two rounds. After that no one cared much anymore. 

Oh, and the independents who won all county honors--they had to prove themselves by fencing the best fencers. But if they lost their bouts, the would still be winning all county honors.

All in all, lets just screw this format, the last format, and just make a new one. Or just split something into two days, since apparently the adminstration doesn't live up to its word and just finish the whole thing. What were the team events for? Not only for the team, but to find out the champion for each weapon! Too bad though, it's such a shame. 

I agree with sloth on many points, though may take a less harsh stance.  Any of the fencers I knew fenced theri hearts out to help their TEAM .  That was the point.  And who can question a coaches reason for how he positioned a player.  Seniority, team captains, etc may have been given honors.   To say it was dishonest is ridiculous and unfair.   Many factors come into play.  Just sounds like sour grapes.  All said and done, this was meant to be a team competition.  The individual aspect of it never should have been introduced.  And the whole independent structure is a mess.  They should compete as a real team or not at all.  If a school can't roster a team they don't have one.

Let's not lose sight of the great season.  The kids standing up there at the end of the day worked hard and deserved their awards.   If you try to lesson these achievements you will turn the better fencers away from HS fencing.  We need to support and encourage the best to participate.   Fencing attracts a great group of kids.  Why knock them down.  It's bad enough that most of the athletic departments and the media ignores them.  Is anyone going to inform Newsday,etc.  of  the team and individual results?  If we can't support our own we deserve to have them walk away.  Many of the kids who fence USFA have dropped out.  Those who stay do so because they want to support their school.  Fencing is a small community.  There is no more room for pettiness.

Kudos to all who fenced yesterday.

@Pisteoff -

 You must have not been at the coaches meeting last Thursday, nor the bout committee table the day of the tournament... If you were at either, you'd have seen that Great Neck North coaches were in attendence at Thursday's meeting and their rosters were handed in at that time.  Great Neck SOUTH failed to hand in their roster on time, and neither of their coaches were at the meeting on Thursday.  Regardless of who's "fault" it was, the late roster causes a minimal delay. 

@Everyone -

Obviously, there were glitches in the format of the tournament itself, but don't point fingers unless you know all of the facts.  We did everything in our power to ensure the team tournament went as smoothly as possible, given the format we all knew we'd be working with.  When you try anything new for the first time, there's going to be some flaws, just like when a teacher tries a new lesson plan in the classroom.  What we do now is look at what went good/bad and collectively vote towards ways we can better the program for our terrific athletes.

With ALL due respect, you should  be OUT on your asses if you were in the position to say or do something but didn't. Especially when it came to the Levy and the GNS roster problems. Coaches, who will be left unnamed, complained about the complacency of the other coaches on these, and other issues. While you may not agree with me, I feel the integrity of the Nassau event was substantially impaired. And it is because of events like this, a lot of USFA competetive fencers refuse to fence HS, which is a damn shame in itself.

Why didn't YOU go over to Mr. Levy and ask him to sit in the bleachers with the other parents? Why didn't you?  Didn't you hear the screaming and yelling by a parent complaining about this from the side of strip 1?  This is EXACTLY the problem - YOU didn't do what you could.  You allowed a parent of a highly functioning and competetive fencer to stand next to her on the strip and coach her even after valid complaints were lodged by the parent AND the teams coach. By NOT acting, you contributed to the rulebreaking.

With regard to the "try the format for the first time", didn't someone say that this format has been used for 20 plus years in NCAA etc.... competitions?  If so, how can you NOT know how to run it?

The format that YOU chose could not be managed, and could NOT be delivered as outlined.  This CANNOT happen since its a once a YEAR event being relied on by hundreds of competitors as well as parents and school districts.

Inherently, I still believe the format is lousy - but the people running it were even worse.  Bonano should resign because she has NO CLUE how to "manage" an event. And why was there even an attempt to change the format that has worked well in the past for Nassau?

Again, I am filing a complaint with Section VIII in Albany directly so their review cannot be influenced by the local hacks.

Bem- the point is that someone established the rules, and some were allowed not to follow them because there was no enforcement, no penalty.  If the kids on GNS were forced to forfeit their first round because the COACHES didn't do what they were supposed to do, then let the kids, parents and the school districts (who actually pay them) punish those who didn't follow the rules.  Its sad that rules can be bent to accomodate the few, to the detrment of those who follow them.

Great competetive example.

At least the administration could ASK what people would think of the new system. 

OK.  Where to begin?  This is getting tiresome.

 Questioning a coaches honesty and morality is over the top.  Let's get a grip here.  Plus, you can't possibly know the facts in all of the cases.  I happen to know of two instances where factors came into play in placement decisions which should not be discussed on a public board.  Be very careful what you accuse people of. Still sounds like you're sucking some sour grapes to me.

In terms of the independents, I was referring to the regular season.  As someone mentioned, since those meets don't count towards the team record they do not fence many of the toughest starters. There are several reasons for this which I'm too bored to go into. The most obvious is that coaches give second stringers a chance to fence. Therefore, these fencers get an easier pass to the All County etc honors.  If they were a legit team with all of the consequences of one it would be different.  Don't get me wrong.  There are some fantastic independent fencers and it is a shame their schools don't have a team for them.  We want everyone to participate, just make it even.  As far as counties go, they should come and fence and may the best man/woman win.

Yes, everyone was very, very, very upset that there was no Individual competition  yesterday.  That does not mean we should trash everything that happened yesterday or during the season.  Certainly there are some kids we can boost on our shoulders.  The real sportsmanlike thing would be to acknowledge someone from another team and stop whinning.  Be careful you don't knock down a real good kid. As far as I am concerned there has been enough said.

Onto another topic...Who is in charge of the abyssmal media coverage that we have received this year?  Bonnano?  If I don't see pictures and results in Newsday tomorrow I want someone's head.  There are winter sports besides basketball and wrestling.

I am rarely on this blog and I was not at the Nassau County Championships this year but I do have some information for all of you.  As a collegiate fencer, I have some experience with this format.  It is the IFA format (intercollegiate fencing association).  It has been used for over 50 years. 

With that said, it has advantages and weaknesses.  It is a format that really levels the playing field for TEAMS. It limits the opportunity for one ringer to make that much of a difference and rewards depth.  Which on the other side makes it ripe for upsets and makes it exciting.

It is also not an easy tournament to run.  It does take some experience and when I heard Nassau was going to adopt it I knew the first year would have a lot of growing pains.  I have been coming to Nassau Counties for many years and it has never really been run well.  So I expected that there would be some serious problems with the initial run of the format.  It takes everyone being on the same page and everyone working together to have a goal accomplished.   

The past few entries seem to be concerned about the switching of athletes to try to gain an advantage.  This is not really an integrity issue.  The reason most coaches play by the rules is because historically, many coaches have attempted to manipulate the system to gain something and  have rarely if ever had it work.  Some teams understand they are not very strong so they figure they will take their strongest and put them in the weakest to guarantee them into the individual final.  Eventually, somewhere they lose one and don't make it etc.  When you take the strongs and move them to weaker you just sacrifice bouts in the stronger spots so there is little to no advantage.  Still, it is the coach's choice and there are no rules against it. 

As far as the individual final, not having one is completely unprofessional and ridiculous.  The final is one round, 1.5 hours max.  If your having trouble seeding, take care of some of the other awards while you are waiting.  

Let me warn you about the finals.  Pointing out that the athletes with the best records might not make the final is true, but so what. Often some of the consistently best fencers will NOT make the final.  That is what makes it exciting.  It is the job of the athlete to perform on that day.  By the end of the day they will be getting an award for their past successes.  A county champion is the champion that day.  This is certainly not an unheard of concept in our sport and many others.  For instance, in Collegiate fencing at the NCAA's, All-Americans are chosen based at the placing in the NCAA championship tournament, not on their season record.  This is a sport, if you are a good fencer prove it.  If you had a less than expected result, live with it.  The true test of a champion is what they learn and how they grow from disappointment.  Christian Thorne in Suffolk had two losses all season, yet at the county tournament yesterday, he did not do what it took to make the final.  Although disappointed and angry at himself, he was not mad at the format.  It was his responsibility to win and on that day he didn't.  He still made All-Long Island and all the accolades that accompany his season performance.  It is sport, deal with it.

I can't get over the decision to cancel the individual championship.  Someone's priorities are out of wack.  As I said before, I was not there, so I have no idea how this decision was made, but unless it was weather related, how can it be justified?  Someone didn't want to be bothered?  Someone had a prior commitment that evening? Someone didn't make the final that probably should have?  I have no idea, but regardless it was wrong and my heart goes out to the parents and athletes that sacrificed to prepare for an event that never happened.  SAD!

Since when does a Coach get a pass on honesty and morality? To even think that a coach is above reproach tells me there are some inherent problems in Nassau County. Hit a nerve?  Are you one of the people that stood by and did nothing to make it right? Were you afraid that Mr. Levy was going to sock you in the mouth on the strip if you said somethig to him? Or that the GNS coaches would riot if you held their feet to the fire to enforce the rules and procedures of the event?

And the switcharoo at the fence-off was classic. I guess attempts to subvert the spirit and the rules of the competition is OK in your book too.  You see, thats where the probelm is.

And nothing was said against any fencer, they fenced hard and brilliantly, especially Rayson Hong.  The criticism is ONLY directed at the coaches and the event adminsitators, and if you're one of them, then YOU are equally at fault. I am tired of these righteous coaches who may have been good fencers, but lack the managerial and understanding to coach a high school team - that doesn't mean to give private lessons - it means developing a program to be competetive - which means controlling situations and understanding rules- even ones that are temporary and areed upon. Thats what TAXPAYERS are paying you for - remember- the parents of your school district PAY your damn salaries.  This isn't private lessons, a a private fencing club with rich parents, this is public high school competition regulated by the state.

And you will have somebody's head, because tomorrow I am on the phone with Section VIII and this will NOT happen again.

And if this bores you.....well then BUG OFF! There are hundreds of pissed off fencers and parents, and for a County -wide event to be handled the way it was, was nothing short of embarassing.  You have to take the pain along with the glory. Your NOT entitled to glory. It was painful.

It is not a FACT that the Garden City Boys and Great Neck South Boys were the 2009 Co-Champions of Nassau County as a result of their standings after the season as well as their county tournament day record? Why is it then that this fact was not stated as the awards were being distributed. Why will it go down in the record books as GNS being the County Champs when that is not what happened? The fence-off occured so that a team could be determined to send to fence against Suffolk this coming Tuesday. That should have had no effect on the Nassau County Team Championship Awards. The fence-off should also never only been decided by three bouts either. In case no one noticed...it was for the TEAM championship. If the fence-off was what the coaches decided on it should have at least allowed for the full 9 bouts to take place. No matter what the clock time was. Granted the fence off should have never occured in the first place, based on the format Nassau County was following for the day. For anyone to let that happen was ridiculous and plain unfair to the kids.

If there was a computer problem, it obviously didnt occur the minute team awards were done. Therefore as soon as it was dicovered, the bout committee should have gotten together and figured out the top 8 from each weapon by hand. This could and SHOULD have been done within 45 min. It would have prevented the cancelling of the individual competiton.

"Team ties for place will not be broken; results will stand as a tie."

THAT'S "WILL" "NOT", AGAIN IT IS QUITE CLEAR.

THERE IS NOTHING ODD HERE THERE HAVE BEEN NASSAU, SUFFOLK AND NCAA FENCING CO-CHAMPIONS SOME VERY, VERY RECENTLY.

OH, BY THE WAY GARDEN CITY IS THE NASSAU BOY'S REP TO THE LONG ISLAND CHAMPIONSHIP NOT GNS. IT IS ALSO COMPLETELY AGAINST THE NCAA RULES AND I THINK THE USFA RULES TO USE A BARRAGE TO DECIDE A TEAM EVENT. AGAIN I QUOTE:

"...and any barrage bouts do not count toward team standings."

I'M SURE THE BOSS OF THE NICE LADY IN THE BROWN SUIT (WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT FENCING OR HOW TO RUN A TOUNAMENT), ROSE, WILL HAVE HER IN HIS OFFICE MONDAY MORNING TO FIX THIS QUICKLY SO THAT NASSAU FENCING WILL NOT LOOK FOOLISH AND KNOWS HOW TO FIX SUCH A VERY CLEAR MISTAKE LIKE THIS.

A BARRAGE IS NEVER ("NEVER" TO BE USED TO DECIDE A TEAM EVENT IT DOES MATTER IF IT IS 3 OR 9 IT IS ONLY USED FOR A INDIVIDUAL EVENT AND I DO NOT KNOW (BUT WOULD LIKE TO KNOW) WHO COULD HAVE SUGGESTED THIS ABSOLUTE VIOLATION OF THE CLEAR RULES AGAINST IT. SO HOW WOULD WE BREAK THE TIE TO SEE WHO GOES TO THE LONG ISLAND CHAMPIONSHIP. AGAIN THERE IS NOTHING TO INVENT HERE BY SOME ONE SIDED COACHES AT A ILLEGAL COACHES MEETING DURING THE EVENT. SINCE GARDEN CITY AND GNS TIED 14-2 IN THE REGULAR SEASON AND BEAT EACH OTHER ONCE EACH AND TIED AT THE CHAMPIONSHIP THEN THE TIE BREAKER IS THE HEAD TO HEAD FROM THAT DAY WHICH WAS A 5-4 WIN BY GARDEN CITY SO GARDEN CITY BOY'S QUITE CLEARLY GO TO THE LONG ISLAND CHAMPIONSHIP. IF THE HEAD TO HEAD HAD NOT DECIDED IT THEN A COIN TOSS WOULD HAVE BROKEN THE TIE. I'M NOT INVENTING ANY OF THIS LIKE SOME COACHES DID, THESE ARE THE NASSAU COUNTY, SUFFOLK COUNTY, AND NCAA RULES. (OF COURSE IF THE COACHES HAD JUST DONE WHAT THEY ALL VOTED TO DO AT THE COACHES MEETING DAYS BEFORE THIS EVENT AND MADE GNS FORFIET IT'S FIRST BOUT OF THE CHAMPIONSHIP THEN THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO TIE). ACTUALLY THE COACHES WERE BEING NICE TO GNS THE NCAA CALLS FOR:  

"non participation in the championships"

FOR WHAT THE GNS COACHES FAILED TO DO.

THE COACHES MEETING AT THE CHAMPIONSHIP AND ANY DECISIONS MADE DURING IT WAS ILLEGAL. AS A MATTER OF FACT COACHES IN NASSAU AND SUFFOLK COUNTY AND THE NCAA AND THE USFA, AND IN ALMOST ANY SPORT, ARE ABSOLUTLY PROHIBITED FROM TAKING THE RULE CHANGING ACTIONS THEY WERE ALLOWED TO TAKE AT THE FENCING CHAMPIONSHIP SINCE THEY ARE PREJUDICE. I'M TOLD THAT AT LEAST 4 OF THE COACHES TRIED TO TELL THE OTHERS ALL THIS INFORMATION. ROSE AND SOME COACHES HAD NO AUTHORITY TO MAKE THE RULES CHANGES THEY DID. THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE A BOUT COMMITTEE.

HUH???? OH YEAH!!!!

THE BOUT COMMITTEE SHOULD HAVE HAD THE INFORMATION ABOVE FOR EVERYONE. AND WHO IS THE BOUT COMMITTEE? AGAIN THE RULE IS EASY TO FIND:

All of this begs one question:  Exactly how bad do things have to get before the coaches take responsibility for their failure; the coaches who promoted this misbegotten format and its even worse execution stop making excuses; the coaches stop trying to wiggle out of their failure to abide the rules; the coaches stop making apologies for unethical and unsportsmanlike conduct; the coaches stop trying to hide behind the "do it for the children" excuse?

We are all trying to do it for the kids. How dare you lay claim that only your way is for the students, and anyone who points out that the emporer has no clothes somehow doesn't care about the children.  It's insane to argue that this disastrous competition was somehow good for the kids.  It was bad for everyone, and yet not a single coach who promoted or was responsibile has the honor or guts to come forward and admit that this year's competition was a nightmare and that he was wrong.

Those who lack any information about what happened, and yet feel inclined to stick their 2 cents in to excuse it, should consider first having a clue before getting involved.  Spare us the holier than thou rhetoric, and come to grips with the one hard fact that none of the apologists can avoid.  This competition was a massive failure.  Just how bad does it have to get, how many kids and teams have to be hurt, before you recognize this fact?

And an appropriate final note:  There's nothing about fencing in Newsday today.  Who is supposed to provide Newsday with the names of the teams and individuals?  Where are the coaches who proclaim that "it's all about the kids" when it comes time to actually do something positive like promote the sport and the season in the local paper, instead of covering their failed butts with half-baked excuses.  Another disgrace.

(And an appropriate final note:  There's nothing about fencing in Newsday today.  Who is supposed to provide Newsday with the names of the teams and individuals?  Where are the coaches who proclaim that "it's all about the kids" when it comes time to actually do something positive like promote the sport and the season in the local paper, instead of covering their failed butts with half-baked excuses.  Another disgrace.)

Exactly.  Can't someone get their act together and have something positive come out of this.

So lets get this straight - the GNS coaches didn't go to the mandatory coaches meeting thrusday night, they didn't submit their rosters on thursday night as was agreed to in advance by all of the coaches in Nassau, they show up to the event and basically wait to see the other rosters, then they submit a roster which now needs to be inputted into the computer system causeing an hour plus delay, then they allow their #1 fencer to be inserted into the lineup (without an injury or sickness to the fencers already slotted on the GNS team) after that fencer shows up halfway through the tournament, and puts that fencer into the #2 slot instead of the #1 slot skewing the results of the entire #2 slot pool, ........then.....at the fence-off, GNS coaches try to insert that fencer into the #1 slot.

If I were the GNS Athletic Director, I would issue a written apology to ALL of the schools, and have Section VIII bar those coaches from ever again coaching in Nassau.

BTW, here is an excerpt from Section VIII coaches requirements:

and junior high (modified) teams of public schools.

not trained and certified as physical education teachers.