Topic: Nassau County Championship Abomination

Wow, proprintwear has the ENTIRE Suffolk County Team and Individual reults posted at their website.

I would like to know in which rulebook (if any) is it legal to hook up a fencer that is not supposed to fence and get away with it? Isnt that a black card in any rulebook? and why wasnt that black card given out?

Please advise. ......... In that case GC should have automatically won.

P.S. If it is not fair to have individual tournaments after the full day of fencing, why have the play offs when the GC #1 eppe had a fever of 100 and exaughsted after fencing all day? It isnt fair to allow GNS students from being disqualified but it is fair to allow GC from not having a fair chance after they obviously beat GNS earlier that day. Interesting...

hence a  fever of 100 degrees

and it is agreed by doctors and common sense that a 16 year old cannot fence from 10 am until 8 pm and then go on to do more after (individuals)

nothing to do with conditioning in these categories

If a bout is fenced out of order, it should be moved to the proper place in the bout order. If started but not completed when the error is detected, the bout is completed and moved to the proper place in the order. (end)

Nowhere in the rules does it state anything about a forfeit or a black card.  If a fencer hooks up, that would still not be considered fencing out of order.  One would argue that the fencer would have to present himself to the referee for inspection before any penalty could be given, if there were even a penalty.  Which there is NOT. (i.e.  a fencer who hooks up to the reel with a blade that has a bend which is more than the maximum allowed, does not receive a yellow card.  The penalty can only be given after the fencer present himself to the referee.  The same example can be made if a fencer hooks up, and immediately realizes his epee is missing a screw.  As long as he replaces the weapon before presenting it to the referee, he cannot be penalized.  This same principal would be true for the "alleged" hooking up of the wrong athlete.  Even if there was a penalty for fencing out of order, the fencer never presented himself to the referee, and the bout never started.  And furthermore, the referee (Brian Libert-Head of Referees) for the final fence-off bout between the GNS fencer and the Garden City Fencer stated that Fishler indeed did not actually hook-up.  So the statement that GNS was "attempting" to cheat is bogus.  There was NO attempt, and even if Fishler had hooked into the reel, he did not present himself to the referee, nor did the bout begin.  Fishler's keen attempt to psych out the Garden City fencer obviously worked.  He was "pretending" to warm up and made the suggestive action that he was going to fence the bout by grabbing the reel.  This was actually an ingenious psychological tactic that GNS used to their advantage.  Fencing is as much a mental game as it is a physical one; thus the term "Physical Chess."  There was no dishonest play, and the correct fencer's fenced the bout.  This was an amazing ending to an exciting tournament.  The final round was more than impressive.

Hi, I am a fencer on the GNS fencing team and I just want to say that our team this year was a little bit disorganized due to the fact that we had two brand new coaches, one whom knows next to nothing about fencing. However, they are both great people, and I am completely sincere when I say that they didn't intend to wrong any of the other teams. That being said, I know that they did send in the rosters late, and so they still erred, but it was unintentional and I know from fencing with them 25+ hours per week that they would never, ever, intentionally cheat the system. Also, the fencer who came late was taking ACTs, he didn't just come late because he felt like it... and, also, I think the coaches have to understand that it is natural to want to put your best fencer in to fence such an intense bout that determines the county championship... the GNS boys coach was doing his very best, but he doesn't know how fencing works, and it isn't his fault! I think the GNS boys team didn't even realize that due to the order of the fencers, their first and second spots and first and second best fencers were technically reversed.... but when you want to win that badly, sometimes sense leaves your head for a few moments. 

I also think that since Counties is OVER, the aim should be to improve it for next year, because complaining about what happened this year, now, is useless, and it will not change any results; it can only ameliorate things for next year. 

Well sorry to inform you,  I was there and he WAS hooked up. So were many others who could tell you the same thing. If Brian didnt see it thats really not anyones problem but his own. Is GNS paying you to talk for them since they cannot do anything on time or professionally or sportsmanlike?

Of course IM SURE if no one came up to GNS they would not have allowed him to fence. Right...just like GNS did everything else in a professional manner. We will all believe it when we see it. The epee fencer from GC did not see Fishler hooked up, other students, parents and coaches did so the psychological thing really is a great excuse/cover up. Good job whoever thought of that one.

GC eppe fencer actually beat GNSs #1 earlier that day 5-0 so we can all understand why GNS needed to play "games".

Also, thank you for the copy paste from NCAA but according to Saturdays rules and format, directors and athletic directorsrs, NCAA rules had nothing to do with Saturday.

Apparently, again, you are misinformed.  Whether Mr. Fishler was or was not hooked up is actually irrelevant; see the NCAA rule above.  Secondly, Nassau County High School Fencing/Section VIII DO follow NCAA rules for all meets and tournaments; This tournament followed NCAA rules and used the IFA format.  I'd also like to make it clear that under NO circumstances am I speaking on behalf of GNS, and I did not make any statement that I believe the GNS coaches are or acted professional.  The NCAA rules for tournament play also state that team rosters are submitted the day of the tournament, and it is not mandated that any roster be submitted beforehand.  Although the coaches association did request that all teams hand their rosters in on time, a team must be allowed to check in and make any corrections to their line-up the morning of the tournament.  The coaches association also met, discussed, voted and agreed on the format.  Every coach was clearly informed that they had the sole discretion to allow any fencer to fence in any slot.  The format suggests that you fence your strongest, mid, and weakest fencers in their respective places, but in NO way is it required.  There is NOTHING unethical or dishonest about making changes to fencers' positions.  It shows a team who also has great strategy, which is a large part of fencing.  It is just as much a mental game as it is physical, and as all athletes are trained, a team makes strategic moves and part of the ability to win is the ability to out psych the opponent.  This was made very clear, and was discussed in depth.  I will not get into all of the reasons why a team would or would not flip-flop their fencers because the concept would merely be too complicated for you grasp.  GNS actually penalized themselves by having Mr. Fishler fence in the second slot.  There was NO overall benefit for them to have made this change, except for the fact that Mr. Fishler was unable to be at the tournament inception due to an ACT exam.  Again, the theory for making the change would be beyond your comprehension.  It was an extremely smart decision, based on the particular set of circumstances, and shows excellent judgement by the coach who set the order.  If Mr. Fishler was able to be in attendance from the beginning of the tournament, I'm SURE GNS would have never made the switch.  Again, overall, the reason for that change had a negative effect on the GNS team's overall wins for the day.  The fence-off format was the brain child of Mike Kreidman (Interim Coaches Assoc. President) and GC coach.  And the fact that the GC #1 epee beat the GNS #1 epee earlier in the day has again, NO relevance.  Many a times has a fencer lost a bout during a seeding round, and beat the same fencer in direct eliminations (DEs) to win the tournament.  That is just one example using the sport of fencing, which also, CLEARLY you have NO understanding of.  MAYBE before you go making accusations, you should have all your facts together and have a COMPLETE understanding of what you are arguing, as every GOOD lawyer would.      

I HAD NOT NOTICED THAT YOU WERE CONTINUING TO MISINFOM ON THIS BLOG ALSO.

AGAIN YOUR LACK OF I SUPPOSE TOUNAMENT KNOWLEDGE IS APPARENT

I QUOTE FROM THIS YEARS NCAA RULE BOOK:

This thread, and what happened at the Nassau County Championships altogether, have made a few things very clear.

1.  Not a single coach or official has as yet shown the guts to acknowledge and take responsibility for the fact that the tournament itself was an epic failure.  Has the 9-10 hours been forgotten?  Have the various infractions gone away?  While I agree that an individual competition after the team competition would have been absurd, as high school students can't be expected to fence for that long, it still ignores the problem that there was no individual at all.  Coaches and officials post anonymously to make excuses and justify this format and its execution, as if we are all not aware of how horrible it was.  For crying out loud, we were all there.  We all saw it.  Man up and admit it already.  Stop spinning and have some dignity.

2.  High school fencing has rules.  Whether USFA, NCAA, whatever, there are rules.  It's time for the anonymous posters who claim to be the final authority to either use their real names and stand behind their claims or shut up.  It's also time for the person who is actually responsible (Rose?) to come forward and state what the rules are.  Rules aren't a matter of argument, but they are whatever they are.  Arguing their logic or comparing them to how other people do things is irrelevant.  There are rules.  What are the rules?

If there was a mistake at the Championships, then admit it and correct it.  It may be hard for GNS, but it's also hard for GC if they should have won under the rules.  Whatever it may be, it's time to hear from the person responsible, the person who is PAID to be in charge of Nassau County High School fencing, and get to the bottom of this. 

3.  This entire fiasco has been a disgrace to Nassau, but even more disagraceful has been the failure of a single coach or official to come forward using their real name to take responsibility for any of this, whether about the nightmare tournament, the gaming of the system, application of the rules or any of the many other problems.  Some of you try to divert attention by your "it's all about the children" nonsense.  We have a terrible mess that has diminshed all the hard work of the children, and your hiding behind this does nothing to honor their efforts. 

It's time for the grown ups to act like grown ups, which seems impossible given some of the crap that's been posted here. Enough with the personal anonymous attacks and claims.  When you hide your identity, there is no reason who anyone to belief you. I don't claim to be an expert at any of this, have no horse in this race, and couldn't care less whether GNS or GC ends up at the top, so who I am doesn't matter.  But if you are a coach and official, but don't have the balls to stand behind your claims, then there is no reason why anyone should believe you.  

This tournament has been a disagrace to Nassau County HS fencing.  Is there any coach or official in Nassau County who is honorable enough to come forward under his own name and take responsibility?  The fencers demonstrated honor and dignity in their efforts.  The coaches and officials, hiding from their screw-ups and trying desperately to spin away their responsibility, have been disagraceful.  You are not worthy of these kids. 

According to the Official NYS Athletic Handbook, the rules regarding fencing are the USFA Rules, NOT the NCAA rules.  While the tournament may have been an IFA format, the RULES are governed by the USFA - and if you hook up the wrong fencer at a USFA team event - that means BLACK CARD!

here's the link, look specifically at page 108, its the NOTE section:

http://www.nysphsaa.org/handbook/pdf/Handbook_0810.pdf 

Whatever bout format you choose, USFA provides the rules.

WRONG- FIE/USFA rule on fencing out of order in a team event has changed...NO BLACK CARD..

"If this order is altered, intentionally or unintentionally, all the
touches scored since the modification are annulled and the
match is resumed in the correct order."

USFA Rule book (page 40).

o.44 The formula for the competition is as follows.
1. The relay formula applies to all weapons.
2. The three fencers of one team fence the three fencers of the
opposing team (9 relay bouts).
3. The bouts of each match have to be fought in the following
order:
3–6 5–2
5–1 1–4
2–4 6–2
6–1 3–5
3–4
If this order is altered, intentionally or unintentionally, all the
touches scored since the modification are annulled and the
match is resumed in the correct order.

Agreed, especially with all of the OBAMA appointee's saying....."oppps sorry, I forgot to pay those taxes....its just an H O N E S T mistake", see, that makes it all better.

I am glad Cliff chose to take the ACT, he is a great, responsible kid, and none of went on saturday is in any way attributable to him.  He is a class act and a standard that a LOT of kids look up to.  It was the adult coaches decisions that are being criticised. I wish I could watch Cliff fence EVERY bout, on several strips at once. His school and his family should be very prioud of him.

Cliff, if you are reading this thread before the LI Championships tonight, please KICK SOME SERIOUS BUTT!

Actually you just proved the point. If Cliff fenced out of order, then all of his touches would be annuled, and Rayson would still have to fence in his proper order. The black card would be in the dicretion of the referee, and if he thought that it was a blatant attempt to cheat, he could still black card for attempting to cheat.

Actually it does.  At most USFA National Tournaments, fencers are fencing from 9 am, sometimes to 8pm.  But the type of fencing done at the USFA is fairly constant, and much much more demanding compared to HS Fencing.  An Epee fencer fenced for about 3 minutes, every hour at the Counties.  A USFA epee fencer can fence, on average 15 minutes per hour in the prelims, and then at DE's its stretched to multiple 15 point bouts.  Conditioning is a very important aspect to fencing.  Its not a test of who comes off the bench cold and fences the best. Its a mental and physical stamina sport as well.

It is also Section III's mission to make sure that conditioning is a very important part of the athletic practice, so as to comply with State mandates on physical education and fitness.

BTW, that #1 Epee from GC is a great kid.  Sorry he's sick.

The Official New York State Handbook may state that HS Fencing uses the USFA rules, but this was modified during a meeting with the State back in the spring of 2008.  HS Fencing now follows the NCAA rules. I know this because I was the President of the Coaches Association at the time, and present at the meeting. -Robert C. Piraino 

Nice attenpt at a spin...NOT...you belong in politics!

Was this not your quote?

"if you hook up the wrong fencer at a USFA team event - that means BLACK CARD!"

So Robert (whom everyone should know is well respected and the former coach of GNS), you were refereeing saturday.  Were any of the issues raised on this board brought up at the event? And is there an update on posting results?