Topic: Nassau County Championship Abomination
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| PisteoffPosts: 63Location: Join Date: February 2, 2008 10:17 PMSend Message |  February 11, 2009 10:19 AMnickelmouse wrote:
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Once again I was not at the Nassau County tourny, I am just giving proper information. The argument above is that "the format failed under it's own weight." The problem with that argument is that if it has been successfull for over 50 years in both Suffolk county and the IFA. It is not a problem with the format, just those running it. I am not claiming sabotage or anything else, just defending that the format is NOT flawed.Now, the Nassau version of the IFA format included a weighting system that is not in the Suffolk version or the original format. So in Nassau version for example, Hewlet comes in with a severe deficit. In the original format they would have the same chance as everyone else. Giving anyone a chance to win a Championship. During the long history of the tournament in Suffolk, there has been many teams that were ranked 1st, including undefeateded teams, which ended up not winning the the County Tournament. "Parry Repost" is right with his analysis of THIS version of the IFA format. I do not know why the weigting system was put in place.As for the change, the previous system that Nassau had, was two days of playoffs and one day for the individuals. All formats have their pro's and con's. The season is very short and with fencing growing it is very very difficult to fit in all the meets (especially with weather related issues). So having a three day to the county tournament is very difficult. That format also excludes teams from the getgo. The Nassau individual tournament was a full day with 24 competitors per weapon per gender. Except for the additional day there is nothing wrong with this tournament either. There were some problems in the past which are being worked out; the coaches this year, quite rightly agreed to have an open system of records. Although difficult for some, they had to produce and submit their legible scoresheets for calculation of individual records. This was an obvious and good decision by the Nassau association and will produce a fair examination of the competitors.FYI: Suffolk chooses it's representative to the LI championship by their league dual meet season. Although it has never happened it is quite possible that the Suffolk county Champs are not the one to fence in the LI Champs. The rationale for that is that the LI championship is a dual meet and they want to put the best dual meet team in that spot. But this also allows for a co-county champs without any kind of additional tie breaker. If there is a tie to the dual meet season, Suffolk looks at the head to head score (margin of victory at 14) between the two champs, if that is a tie they go down the list to the next best teams margin of victory etc.. I was entertained however, by an anonymous poster complaining aggressively about anonymity. I am sorry that there were so many problems at the champioship; it might just be growing pains. On the positive side, I heard that an individual final will be held on the 24th. Good luck to all the competitors. HS Fencing season is OVER. To hold an individual tourney AFTER the LI Championships, while an honorable attempt to make up for the problems, just isn't the same. At saturday's tournament, those kids were fencing for the team and for the individuals. They were told how the system was for choosing the individuals, but you CAN'T get that day back. You can't get all the teams, all the schools and all the spectators back.
Is the plan to still use the pool of 8? Then nobody will come except the fencers and a handful of parents. Will it be similar to last years format of 24? I don't think all the kids would be available because of extended vacations, SAT prep, science projects etc....that were put off for the season | |
| Parry-RipostePosts: 16Location: Join Date: January 15, 2009 3:38 PMSend Message | February 11, 2009 10:25 AM Sorry to nitpick, but your final point needs some clarification. When someone comments about public information, anonymity makes no difference. When someone claims to possess secret information that no one else knows, then the poster's credibility and source of knowledge becomes material. If it's done anonymously, then how does anyone know whether the information is accurate or not?
While I may disagree with some of the assertions and conclusions of Robert and Ryan, I respect the fact that they have disclosed their identities. As I am neither a coach nor a HS fencer, and as I possess no information that everyone else doesn't possess, my identity is irrelevant, and the only thing that matters is the strength of my arguments.
Finally, thank you for clearing up the weighting issue with regard to Suffolk County. That does make a difference to me. The only remaining question, then, is how to address the 9-10 hours that the tournament took, with 3 minutes of fencing per fencer per hour (except for the bye, which was 3 minutes of fencing per 2 hours per fencer). This still seems to be an inherent problem with the format given that Nassau has 2 more teams than Suffolk, and it is simply too much time with too little fencing per fencer to maintain the integrity of the tournament format. | |
| Parry-RipostePosts: 16Location: Join Date: January 15, 2009 3:38 PMSend Message | February 11, 2009 10:32 AM Pisteoff--
I may be wrong, but as far as I'm aware, no one has ever announced who would have qualified for the individuals. And as parents are well aware, but coaches may not be, life goes on and people have other obligations. Everyone is not available on any given day. I would like to see an individual tournament held, primarily because the seniors will never have another chance and they shouldn't be denied their final opportunity to fence. I hope that they do the individuals, even late, and I hope someone lets the fencers know who is in it, and I hope that all the fencers can make it, and I hope that it turns out well. It saddens me deeply that the seniors will be denied this chance because of the mistakes of others. It's just not right. | |
| PisteoffPosts: 63Location: Join Date: February 2, 2008 10:17 PMSend Message | February 11, 2009 11:21 AM Parry-Riposte wrote:
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Pisteoff-- I may be wrong, but as far as I'm aware, no one has ever announced who would have qualified for the individuals. And as parents are well aware, but coaches may not be, life goes on and people have other obligations. Everyone is not available on any given day. I would like to see an individual tournament held, primarily because the seniors will never have another chance and they shouldn't be denied their final opportunity to fence. I hope that they do the individuals, even late, and I hope someone lets the fencers know who is in it, and I hope that all the fencers can make it, and I hope that it turns out well. It saddens me deeply that the seniors will be denied this chance because of the mistakes of others. It's just not right.
Agreed. I just don't think it will have the same "feel" as it would had the same day it was scheduled for. But yes, it really is the last time a senior will fence in HS. Good point. | |
| PisteoffPosts: 63Location: Join Date: February 2, 2008 10:17 PMSend Message | February 11, 2009 11:39 AM Parry-Riposte wrote:
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Sorry to nitpick, but your final point needs some clarification. When someone comments about public information, anonymity makes no difference. When someone claims to possess secret information that no one else knows, then the poster's credibility and source of knowledge becomes material. If it's done anonymously, then how does anyone know whether the information is accurate or not? While I may disagree with some of the assertions and conclusions of Robert and Ryan, I respect the fact that they have disclosed their identities. As I am neither a coach nor a HS fencer, and as I possess no information that everyone else doesn't possess, my identity is irrelevant, and the only thing that matters is the strength of my arguments. Finally, thank you for clearing up the weighting issue with regard to Suffolk County. That does make a difference to me. The only remaining question, then, is how to address the 9-10 hours that the tournament took, with 3 minutes of fencing per fencer per hour (except for the bye, which was 3 minutes of fencing per 2 hours per fencer). This still seems to be an inherent problem with the format given that Nassau has 2 more teams than Suffolk, and it is simply too much time with too little fencing per fencer to maintain the integrity of the tournament format.
How about this far-fetched idea, lets reverse the format. Run the competetition based on an individual competition. like last years individuals, and then the "team" champion is the team whose members best performed in the individuals? Just an idea. Just tally up the wins, and announce the winner. | |
| nickelmousePosts: 10Location: Join Date: February 8, 2009 7:36 PMSend Message | February 11, 2009 12:10 PM Parry-Riposte wrote:
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Sorry to nitpick, but your final point needs some clarification. When someone comments about public information, anonymity makes no difference. When someone claims to possess secret information that no one else knows, then the poster's credibility and source of knowledge becomes material. If it's done anonymously, then how does anyone know whether the information is accurate or not? While I may disagree with some of the assertions and conclusions of Robert and Ryan, I respect the fact that they have disclosed their identities. As I am neither a coach nor a HS fencer, and as I possess no information that everyone else doesn't possess, my identity is irrelevant, and the only thing that matters is the strength of my arguments. Finally, thank you for clearing up the weighting issue with regard to Suffolk County. That does make a difference to me. The only remaining question, then, is how to address the 9-10 hours that the tournament took, with 3 minutes of fencing per fencer per hour (except for the bye, which was 3 minutes of fencing per 2 hours per fencer). This still seems to be an inherent problem with the format given that Nassau has 2 more teams than Suffolk, and it is simply too much time with too little fencing per fencer to maintain the integrity of the tournament format. I just found the anonymity post amusing I regret mentioning it because my intentions for this blog is simply to give proper information. I really have no care on the agenda of anyone on this blog anonymous or not. As far as the individual tournament, I have no extra detailed information. I am sure there are problems with any solution, just pleased it is going to happen. As far as timing, I was not there so I don't know how long it TRULY took. The only proper information I can give is that when experienced officials run this format it should take about 45-50 minutes per round. A round is added for every two teams added. So Suffolk has 8 teams four rounds, Nassau has 9 teams 5 rounds, adding a 10th team will still have 5 rounds. It takes about 45 minutes to seed, double-check and confirm the finals. So if Nassau started 30 minutes late, which although not right is within a margin of error. 9:30 AM start is a 1:40 team end. 2:30 start for individuals with an 8 person final easily should be finished within 2 hours , so 4:30 end with award ceremony all should be leaving by 6pm. With everything done in one day. This is a common Suffolk county tournament day. I heard rumor of late rosters. For Suffolk, preliminary rosters with subs are submitted two days in advance at the coaches meeting. Final check and changes happen the morning of the tournament. Late rosters would definitely cause a delay but I don't know how long. I do have an actual opinion. I have been at every Long Island Championship since it's inception. Every year the the sections take time to make a very nice award ceremony for those fencers that have reached all-long island status. I believe it is a prestigious award and very hard to achieve as you must be the top two in your county. Every year whether in Nassau or Suffolk the Nassau kids disrespect the sport and the association by not even bothering to show up or send anyone in their place. This year was no exception. Apart from the Garden City and Great Neck South members who made all-long island team only Olivia Curry and AJ & Heather Szilagyi and David Leung were respectful enough to make it. As usual all suffolk fencers were I don't know why the athletes the circumstances, whether coaches never informed them etc.. but it doesn't matter. It is disgraceful. For next year please keep this in mind and take the time to receive the accolades that you deserve.
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| Parry-RipostePosts: 16Location: Join Date: January 15, 2009 3:38 PMSend Message | February 11, 2009 12:26 PM I was unaware that there was a ceremony for the All Long Island winners at the Championships. I know one All LI winner, and I know that he had no idea that there was any ceremony or he would have been there. In fact, he asked if there was anything, and no one knew what to tell him. They might have gone for fun anyway, but St. Joseph's is a long way on a school night for someone who isn't supposed to be involved.
Please don't blame the kids when no one tells them. This goes back to the lack of information all around, which I assume goes back to Rose or whoever is responsible for getting the correct information out. | |
| epee#1Posts: 20Location: Join Date: January 23, 2009 10:35 AMSend Message | February 11, 2009 1:00 PM Correction to nickelmouse’s math: Suffolk has 8 teams 7 rounds, Nassau has 9 teams 8 rounds, adding a 10th team will still have 9 rounds. It takes about 45 minutes to seed, double-check and confirm the finals. So if Nassau started 30 minutes late, 9:30 AM start is a 4:15 team end. 5:00pm start for individuals with an 8 person final easily should be finished within 2 hours , so 7:00pm end with award ceremony all should be leaving by 8pm. With everything done in one day. Suffolk started at ~9:30...The awards were done by 6:30pm | |
| PisteoffPosts: 63Location: Join Date: February 2, 2008 10:17 PMSend Message | February 11, 2009 1:59 PM Parry-Riposte wrote:
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I was unaware that there was a ceremony for the All Long Island winners at the Championships. I know one All LI winner, and I know that he had no idea that there was any ceremony or he would have been there. In fact, he asked if there was anything, and no one knew what to tell him. They might have gone for fun anyway, but St. Joseph's is a long way on a school night for someone who isn't supposed to be involved. Please don't blame the kids when no one tells them. This goes back to the lack of information all around, which I assume goes back to Rose or whoever is responsible for getting the correct information out. If the fencer you are referring to is Jack Greenfield from Oyster Bay, then that is a crying shame. How could this information not get to him or his family?. Jack has worked very hard this year and at the very least, deserved to be "informed" of the ceremony. What an honor for a 9th grader. Just more of the same "lack of correct information". His coach needs to accept blame for that one, even if he is one of the lonnger tenured coaches in Nassau. While I am sure we will see Jack on the All LI team for the next couple of years, sometimes the first is the most rewarding. My heart goes out to him. He is a great kid. | |
| nickelmousePosts: 10Location: Join Date: February 8, 2009 7:36 PMSend Message | February 11, 2009 6:34 PM epee#1 wrote:
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| 1BAYMANPosts: 8Location: Join Date: February 9, 2009 3:11 AMSend Message | February 12, 2009 2:42 AM FROM THE INFORMATION THAT IS OUT THERE: THE LATEST INFO IS THE INDIVIDUAL TOURNAMENT IS AT 5PM WED FEB 25TH AT GARDEN CITY. PLEASE I AM JUST PASSING ON INFORMATION, NOT FIGHTING WITH ANYONE ABOUT THIS. I'M NOT YELLING THIS IS JUST EASIER FOR ME. WHEN YOU GET THIS OLD I HOPE YOU CAN ALL SEE BETTER THEN I CAN. IF THEY CHANGE THIS OR SOMEONE KNOWS SOMETHING MORE CURRENT THEN THIS LET US ALL KNOW. DON'T BLAME ME IF IT IS WRONG I'M THE MESSENGER. THE QUICKER EACH OF THE SCHOOLS SETUP THE STRIPS THE FASTER THE EVENT WILL BE. THE COACHES ALL WILL BE/HAVE BEEN TOLD WHO QUALIFIED. BUT ALL YOU FENCER'S IF YOU THINK YOU MADE IT ASK YOUR COACH. OR MAYBE THE POWERS THAT BE CAN JUST POST THE 24 BOY'S AND 24 GIRLS HERE. JUST A SUGGESTION. GOOD LUCK TO ALL. BETTER LATE THEN NEVER.
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| FencerMomPosts: 2Location: Join Date: February 12, 2009 9:30 AMSend Message | February 12, 2009 9:37 AM Parry-Riposte wrote:
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"Consider this: What chance did Hewlett have of changing the outcome under this format? Zero. So what purpose was served for Hewlett? None. But Hewlett was way behind, you say, so that doesn't count. Wrong, I just found and read through this entire forum, and as a Hewlett mom I felt the need to respond. Yes, our team did not have any expectations of winning BUT we did have a number of fencers who fenced very well in the team competition, beating people they were not expected to beat. We did have 2 fencers make All County also. Considering our team did not have a coach with any fencing experience I need to commend all of our fencers and the heart and effort that they put into the season. Many of them came a long way over the course of the season. To go to another point - I forget which team had a father that was allowed on the strip to coash - that really bothered me. As I mentioned our coach had no fecning background so she was unable to help our fencers, question calls etc during the competition. This put our team at a huge disadvantage. A number of the students on our team take private lessons and their coach came along for the day. HE was not allowed on the floor. He could only coach from the sidelines and was todl he had to be quiet during the bouts. He was actually threatened with bodily harm by someone on the floor when he was trying to help one of our fencers. I understand the rules. He is not a school coach or assistant coach, Fine. But make the rules apply to all. And don't physically threaten someone. And yes this did happen, I was there ALL DAY. Once again Kudos to all the Hewlett fencers and Coach Bove for a well fenced season. Hope to see some of you in the individuals.
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| I-FencePosts: 9Location: Join Date: January 15, 2009 9:16 PMSend Message | February 13, 2009 5:09 PM FencerMom wrote:
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I just found and read through this entire forum, and as a Hewlett mom I felt the need to respond.Yes, our team did not have any expectations of winning BUT we did have a number of fencers who fenced very well in the team competition, beating people they were not expected to beat. We did have 2 fencers make All County also.Considering our team did not have a coach with any fencing experience I need to commend all of our fencers and the heart and effort that they put into the season. Many of them came a long way over the course of the season.To go to another point - I forget which team had a father that was allowed on the strip to coash - that really bothered me. As I mentioned our coach had no fecning background so she was unable to help our fencers, question calls etc during the competition. This put our team at a huge disadvantage. A number of the students on our team take private lessons and their coach came along for the day. HE was not allowed on the floor. He could only coach from the sidelines and was todl he had to be quiet during the bouts. He was actually threatened with bodily harm by someone on the floor when he was trying to help one of our fencers.I understand the rules. He is not a school coach or assistant coach, Fine. But make the rules apply to all. And don't physically threaten someone. And yes this did happen, I was there ALL DAY. Once again Kudos to all the Hewlett fencers and Coach Bove for a well fenced season. Hope to see some of you in the individuals. Who were the really good fencers on the team? Didn't Hewlett leave early so how do you know which fencers received All County? I do not have anything against Hewlett, but why not get a coach with fencing background? Maybe the parent had fencing knowledge... But a coach should be allowed to support his fencers, true. | |
| FencerMomPosts: 2Location: Join Date: February 12, 2009 9:30 AMSend Message | February 13, 2009 5:16 PM I-Fence wrote:
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Who were the really good fencers on the team? Didn't Hewlett leave early so how do you know which fencers received All County? I do not have anything against Hewlett, but why not get a coach with fencing background? Maybe the parent had fencing knowledge...But a coach should be allowed to support his fencers, true. No, Hewlett did not leave early. We were there until the bitter end, after the announcement that there wouldbe no individuals that day. I had heard the GNN and OB were the teams that left. They tried to get a coach with fencing background but somehow it didn't happen. Our coach got an e-mail yesterday with the results for the individuals. From Hewlett Mikela Goldstein made it in Foil and Christine Atwell in Saber. The individuals are going to be held on Wednesday Feb 25th at 5pm in Garden City.
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| PisteoffPosts: 63Location: Join Date: February 2, 2008 10:17 PMSend Message | February 15, 2009 11:08 AM | |
| fencingslothPosts: 5Location: Join Date: February 6, 2009 8:06 AMSend Message | February 15, 2009 4:42 PM | |
| nickelmousePosts: 10Location: Join Date: February 8, 2009 7:36 PMSend Message | February 17, 2009 8:25 PM Just FYI The mission fencing camps have dorms and the dates for the sabre and and foil although not on the website yet are set. Sabre 17-21st Foil August 31-Sept 4 The camp always have top fencers in the country attend and for Sabre they have Wes Glon the Penn State Coach and for Foil they have Bucky Leach (both of them were past olympic coaches)
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| 1BAYMANPosts: 8Location: Join Date: February 9, 2009 3:11 AMSend Message | March 13, 2009 1:32 AM great job nassau county and garden city on a excellent individual championship tournament. great coverage by newsday also. lets keep on the paper for more long island fencing articles. and finally a well done on getting all county honors in the papers also. it's great when things are done right.
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