http://forum.newsday.com/forums/thread/5654/ The Opinion section invites readers to share their thoughts on New York's divorce system.Have you (or your parents) been through divorce in New York? We invite you to weigh in through our reader forum. Share your own personal experiences with divorce court, and discuss ideas for reforms with some experts in the field. Did the legal system hurt or help the process?Do you think a "no-fault" system would lead to a fairer settlement?What was the impact on your family dynamics and parent-child relationships?How can divorcing parents, inside and outside the legal system, ensure that their children's privacy and sensitivity is respected?Read more about this issue here. 2008-07-11 16:42:46 http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/62073/ 62073 I've read with interest and some sadness all of the posts on here. Although there are a thousand stories, the simple fact is that the majority of divorces are brought by women who have no grounds. They are simple no longer in love and want out. The history of custody decisions tends to give these women confidence that they can continue thier lives, keep the children, the house and recieve a faily good settlement. Lawyers back this up. My spouses lawyer even advertises showing a beautiful blonde next to a sports car with the liscense plate saying &quot;WAS HIS&quot; on it. Dads face losing not only thier wives (we can get over that) but also a substantial part of thier assets, thier children and thier house. This after doing absolutely nothing wrong. With the laws requiring grounds, it gives them a way to defend thier lives. In my own case, the judge forced a settlement that resulted in shared parenting. We each have the kids every other week. It was difficult in the beginning but even my kids and my ex. now agree it was the best settlement. I found the judge to be carring and he placied great preasures on the lawyers to get us to settle and move quickly. The system can work. Defaulting the system to shared parenting instead of winner takes all has worked in a number of states. Perhaps we should be looking in that direction. 2009-04-13 20:59:16 lidad01 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/35023/ 35023 These are just some ideas that have been enacted in other states to reduce the adversarial combat of divorce concerning children that have worked everywere. Some progress has been made on some of these in New York, but not enough for me. Its hard for me to understand what holds New York back. --------------------------------- grace [url=http://www.alcoholaddiction.org/new-york ]New York Alcohol Addiction Treatment[/url] 2008-08-28 02:11:34 gracejoe <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/34764/ 34764 First let me share some important ponits in this NY divorce system. The first thing is before you carry on the process you have to consult with the New york lawyer regarding this. Then it is recommended that if at all possible to attend a co parental counselling with you ex. This councelling will really help to settle out more than half of the problems between you and you (ex)spouse. =========================== Leofernando New York Drug Addiction 2008-08-24 12:09:57 Leofernando <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32505/ 32505 I began my journey through the maze of our court system for divorce in 1998. Since then I have not only learned a lot but I have no respect for our legal system, the Judges and the lawyers in the system. From early 1998 thru late 2002 there were 10 different judges assigned to my case. Not one of which was capable of making a desision and worse if they did, (happened twice) enforcing it. I had a friend sit in the second floor area of Nassau supreme Court and hear my ex tell her lawyer that she did not have to comply as she was the children's caretaker and they would do nothing to her and she was right. My ex allienated me from my 3 kids. Everything wrong in this world was my falut. Am I angry? You bet but I am also intellegant enough to know without full reform, no fault divorce will only make it worse. I have since given up my rights to my kidsa only because I did not have any. There were 2 different law guardians and both were inefective, go figure. I have testified in front of the Martimonial Commission and would be willing to share the text of such. I spend upwards of $250K for my divorce and my lawyer when the divorce was granted never even gave me a copy of the divorce and even waive nmy right to review before it was sent to a judge for signeture. After I tried to get it changed and wasted more money and time, filed suit against my last attorney and was told by several law professors I had a good case only to get it dismissed by both Nassau Supreme and the Appelete court as well the later on technical issues as I did it Pro See. I was granted visitation but my ex never complied and said the kids didn't want to see me and the court accepted this. She moved out of state without the court knowing and when I brough it before the court, it took her lawyer 90 days to tell me where. Again the judge did nothing. They finally ordered the kids to NY to see me and instead of flying 2 hours they drove for 10. I did have a nice breakfast with them and never had contact with them again as I was blocked by legal manovers I could not afford to counter. I finally gave up my rights to them as I was paying $2500 a month and she didn't need that money. She inhearited over half a million and her new husband almost the same. They some the house and moved down south, bought a house for cash, new cars etc. and do not work. (they also made $350K on the house I gave her) so I* was covering her legal bills. Unless the legal system is reformed from top to bottom this won't change. I know of many who have been put through the wringer in just Nassau alone. It's the good ol' boys network to say the least. They all protect their own and know one can disprove it. I would be more than happy to talk about this in public and have been on TV, News 12, UPN 9, CW 11, and several cable shows as well. 2008-07-21 09:18:48 goingincircles <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32473/ 32473 Dear Mr. Schepard,I applaud and commend you (as well as Mr. Carlson, Dr. Demby and Mr. Mayerson) for bringing attention to the catastrophic impact that outdated divorce practices in New York State have on all parties involved. Our state government desparately needs to examine the current legislature and the way these antiquated procedures have negatively affected countless members of our communities. In a system that has evidently demonstrated that it has far exceeded its ability to best serve the people, action must be demanded now.I feel so strongly about this matter because I am very personally affected by it. After 18 years of marrige, I was divorced in 1998, and even though we are in 2008, I am still in the throes of dealing with an embittered, verbally and emotionally abusive ex-spouse. I have desperately executed each and every one of your suggested techniques for minimizing the adverse effect of divorce on children, the most vital being not to disparage the &quot;other&quot; parent and consequently alienate a child's affections from that parent. However, my ex-spouse has not. Though I have &quot;moved on&quot; with my life, engaged in a loving and commited relationship with another man, and provided my children with a financially and emotionally solid home enviornment, my ex-spouse continues to torment me. I willingly agreed to joint custody, praying that their father would seize the opportunity to be all he could be to and for his children. Throughout the years, he has chosen to be in the periphery of their lives at best. However, I am presently facing the real possibility of having to go to court (again) to petition for sole legal custody of our 15 year old son, because I can no longer tolerate his bearing the brunt of his fathers' wrath towards me. Our daughter (now 20), who decided to live with her father at the age of 15, was the first victim of his tyrannical propaganda. Utilizing the Nassau County Family Court system and a personal attorney was a completely overwhelming scenerio and I was led to believe at that time that allowing her to move into her father's home would be best, even though I did not agree. She now grossly regrets her decision to leave my home, but due to a negative mindset towards me which her father strategically propagated during her youth, she is incapable of moving forward in life and is completely stunted in her ability to develop independence. During the past 10 years since our divorce, I have tried to maintain civil and respectful open communication with my former spouse on behalf of the children. My present attempts to keep him engaged in our son's life (both positive and negative), has been met with either indifferrence or hostility. A direct reflection on the short comings of the divorce/legal sysytem with regard to joint parental custody (as it has impacted my situation) is that while I as the custodial parent have dealt with the joys and angsts of raising our son (and daughter), his/their father has chosen to be &quot;a parent of convenience&quot;. As he has repeatedly stated to me, the courts have empowered him to &quot;see the children IF he chooses to, but he doesn't have to&quot;. Mandated family/ parent counseling should have been instituted. I personally sought professional support for myself and the children ( Banana Splits/ Divorced Parents Groups, etc.) Though he availed himself of a bi-weekly visitation schedule, duiring that time no routines or quality family relationships have been developed in his home. To the contrary, my son would return to our home from &quot;fantasyland&quot; believing that living with me is a battle to be fought. His father has repeatedly undermined my authority and verbally defamed my character, as well as that of my domestic partner, to our son and daughter. Our children were exposed to their father's selfish and egocentric views on how I &quot;destroyed the family&quot;. That I put my needs and personal welfare before theirs. That my engaging in a healthy, loving adult relationship with another man is detrimental to them. My attempts to raise healthy children who are compassionate, responsible, honest and confident, has met with nothing but threats, hysterical confrontation, agitation and aggravation. Our son has now entered into adoloscence and deals with typical teenage issues (school, friends, home,etc.) as he grows and tries to develop an identity and understand his role within society. This phase in development is difficult enough to navigate without the disruptive imput of an embittered parent. My attempts to gain his father's support when our son is behaving inappropriately or is verbally provocative, have given the father the opportunity to present himself as a &quot;knight in white armor&quot;- the person who comes to battle me on his behalf. As a result, my son views my attempts to provide love, structure and support as a threat, and has now become verbally and emotionally abusive towards me. My son has now left my home and gone to spend the summer with his father. I am distrught with the knowledge that he is being further drawn into a dysfunctional situation. I have insisted that they both enter into therapy with me, and am trying to stay in close contact with both my children. My attempts to contact their father by phone to discuss issues go without response. I do not want my children to sufferr any further with the damaging effects of the failed marrige between their parents. I will therefore wait patiently before resorting to handling the matter in court. I once again commend you and your colleagues for bringing to public attention the plight of new York State divorcees and their children. I would greatly appreciate any advice that you can give me on how to proceed with my situation. I strongly believe that mediation and therapy can lead to reconcilliation between ex-spouses if both work cooperatively on behalf of their children to make the transition to &quot;divorced familyhood&quot; a reality. 2008-07-20 14:48:14 hookhead162 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32459/ 32459 Keep it 'Fault'....Bottom line-there is no good way to divorce but no-fault divorce simply makes it easier for one side, usually the wife as women instigate about 80% of all divorces, to walk away with at least half or more of a couple's property even if she is the sole reason behind the divorce. A just divorce apportions blame for the breakdown. You want to walk out? Go ahead but no money, no kids and no property- it's a great stimulus to stay together. No-fault is open season for fleecing. 2008-07-19 18:06:03 joeboston <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32426/ 32426 so if it proven that a fault divorce is so bad for the children going through it, why would a parent contest the grounds? my whole divorce could have been over months ago instead i can't get divorced because of the no-fault law. so we live in the same house he has to pay child support and we are having a custody trial. he lives in the guest room with a dog that he bought in october. my son is highly allergic to this dog went to get tested cause dad did not believe me. went to ny magazines #1 allergy doctor. . dad said he still doesn't belive he is allergic so my son had to go for a second opinion and get pricked by needles all over again the. second dr said he is allergic. the judge said he can keep his dog and my son should just not go into the guest room or den cause thats where the dog is.i'm glad the dog has more rights than my son. but we will stay married. very normal. i hope my husband is happy that his children are being tortured. if this is not cruel and inhuman treatment i don't know what is. 2008-07-18 15:03:23 nyhostage <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32425/ 32425 Based upon what I have observed in New York Courts and in representing clients, the reason that there is a bias in favor of mothers in custody matters is that in most cases, the number one priority of women in their divorce is having physical / residential custody of their children. It is much less common to see men pursue physical custody, unless there is a significant and compelling reason to do so, such as mental illness or addiction issues. In our society, it is a huge stigma for a woman to get divorced and not have her children. For men, there is no such stigma whatsoever. Most men that I have represented are very happy to pay their child support, and have a typical alternate weekend / one dinner per week / holiday schedule with their children. Over the years, however, I have seen an increasing number of male clients request (and obtain by negotiation) joint legal custody and decision making rights. There are many studies that show that men who have joint decision making are more invested in their children, pay more child support, and the children fare much better post divorce. For this reason, I encourage my female clients to agree to joint legal custody in the best interests of their children, whenever possible. The few instances when joint custody is not recommended are in cases where there is domestic violence, unresolved anger between the parties and/or poor communication between the parties.The bottom line is that children benefit the most when they have the input and guidance of both parents. This is especially true following a divorce, when the family unit has been broken apart, and children unavoidably feel confused and abandoned. Parents need to learn to put their children first, and that means putting aside their anger and putting their energies into settling their case as amicably and expeditiously as possible. --Jacqueline Harounian, Esq. 2008-07-18 13:35:41 NewYorkDivorceAttorney <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32389/ 32389 Society still has a bias in favor of mothers and small children. Certainly less than it used to be. In my opinion, the courts are less biased than society generally. Having said that most judges are male and most of them are of an age where they were involved less in the raising of their children so they,as do we all, carry certain biases and prejudices, if you may. One final note not having much to do with the last question; a very good judge once said to me after finishing a term in criminal court and finishing a term in divorce court: Inon their worst behavior.This is an important observation. Hal Mayerson 2008-07-17 14:05:16 HalMayerson <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32387/ 32387 Some perspective on gender bias in child custody disputes: The child custody dispute resolution system has a long history of intentional gender bias. Before the early 1900's children were basically the property of their fathers. In about 1910 the courts started articulating a presumption in favor of custody to mothers, the maternal presumption. The push for legal gender equality roughly eliminated the formal presumption of gender bias in the 1970's and 1980's articulating a gender neutral &quot;best interests of the child&quot; presumption. Articulations of what is in the best interests of children, however, such as the &quot;psychological parent&quot; test continued to favor mothers.Most research showed that absent serious domestic violence or abuse or neglect neither parent was more important to another. Rather, the child benefitted from relationships with both parents, especially if they were not conflicted. Those findings were behind the push in many states for joint custody.Today, legal doctrine in custody disputes (and all family law) is formally gender neutral (and should be). Claims do persist that the &quot;system&quot; is biased against men or women. I am skeptical of them. There are no systematic studies of whether actual court decisions in contested cases favor one gender over another. It is very difficult to conduct such a study, as each custody case is to some extent unique. You have to control, for example, for drug abuse, mental illness, etc. to find comparable cases. What is pretty clear is that the great majority of children after divorce have primary residence with their mothers. More fathers than ever, however, are heavily involved in the lives of their children after divorce. Andy Schepard 2008-07-17 13:23:33 AndrewSchepard <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32385/ 32385 Almost forgot, here is a recent Concise History draft of No-fault! http://www.notdss.com/0/Marriage%20Legal%20Materials/Concise%20History%20of%20No-Fault%209-9-06.doc 2008-07-17 12:15:49 woodb99 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32384/ 32384 &quot;No-Fault&quot; is nothing but PROPAGANDA for one-sided, FORCED divorce on demand. It provides the MOST incentive to destroy the family, and the least incentive to work through difficult issues.Also, what most people will be shocked to learn is that NO-Fault was quietly and deceptively adopted in America by the LAWYERS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS! And the legal business of family destruction is the biggest &quot;growth area&quot; of the legal system.NEVER, NEVER, NEVER TRUST A LAWYER TO DO THE RIGHT THING! WHETHER IT IS A LAWYER IN BLACK ROBES (A JUDGE), OR A LAWYER IN THE LEGISLATURE (PASSING PERVERTED LAWS), OR A LAWYER IN THE COURTROOM / FAMILY BAR WHO MAKES THEIR LIVING AND THEIR MONEY FROM YOUR FAMILY'S DESTRUCTION!Only a fool would believe that a lawyer who makes their living from the destruction of famlies (even if that lawyer wears a black robe) is looking out for your interests! 2008-07-17 12:14:36 woodb99 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32373/ 32373 A question for the panelists, and anyone else with experience in this process:In the personal stories that people have posted, I'm struck by the comments about perceived gender bias in the divorce court system. Still, there seems to be evidence for &quot;bias&quot; against both men and women, often depending on the whim of the judge or the particular situation the couple faces. Do you see any evidence of systemic bias, based on your professional work? Does the fault vs. no-fault debate have any connection to the vulnerability of the system to gender discrimination? And for that matter, is the divorce process currently impacted by other structural inequities that we see throughout the court systems, in terms of class and race?Michelle Chen 2008-07-17 08:36:34 Meeshell2008 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32371/ 32371 I agree with much of what Ms. Harounian said in her recent comment and , in fact, in an earlier posting I virtually said the same. However, it is important for clients to recognize that sometimes the court system is the best, most efficient and safest place for a client to be. Too often clients get involved in protracted negotiations that are a road to nowhere. At least when you are in the court system the process has to move along, albeit slowly and inefficiently, but at least it moves. I am sure most matrimonial practitioners would agree that some times a negotiating tactic is no more than a long stall and it drains clients of energy and financial resources. Finally, while I think it is a business judgment on the part of Ms. Harounian's firm to give free consultations in my experience this is not the norm. Client's should be prepared to pay consultation fees for consultations and should just ask the attorney or his/herassistant when making the appointment if there is such a fee and how much is it? Hal Mayerson 2008-07-17 08:23:54 HalMayerson <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32338/ 32338 I am nearing my 4th year in this circus. I gave the first lawyer I hired $20,000 and then he quit. He refused to take my phone calls with no explanation. His secretary told me she begged him to call me--she was fired. My second lawyer did a few things and then she quit; the opposing attorney filed a motion for sanctions against her and she completed the paperwork needed for the divorce. Nobody ever informed me I was divorced. I called the County Clerk's Office on a whim and found out that I had been divorced for a month. The divorce was contested and very ugly. I have been to the court at least 30 times, usually it was adjourned, sometimes nobody showed up but me. It is disgusting. To the people who fight against no-fault divorce you should walk in these shoes before you venture an opinion. I was married for 36 years, have never so much as entered a courtroom before this and the one time that I needed the system it was not there. What is allowed here is criminal. I have spent 8 hours on some days sitting in the hallway of the court. I have seen mothers' with small childred sit there 8 hours also. This is nothing but a blatant money making deal for the lawyers and an agony for the people who are abused by it. In May 2007 Newsday came to my home and did an interview on divorce in New York, they sent a photographer who took about 100 pictures of me and never published the article. The Chrisite Brinkley trial has been the catalyst for all this attention. What a shame. I hope that she uses her resources to fight for change in this system. It would seem the only way that might happen is for there to be a good news story connected to the divorce. Worst of all is that if you happen to get the divorce and spend every penny you have---well, surprise, there is no enforcement of the stipulations. I ultimately went to the Office of the Self-Represented in Central Islip and filed a Motion to Show Cause of Contempt. I had to find a process server in another state, where my ex-husband had fled, in order to get the deed to the house. The house, which was already half mine is all that I received in the settlement. The reason for that is because it was made clear to me in many ways that I would not win the trial. Grounds are not that easy to prove, a trial is very expensive and so I took the house, which I had not lived in for 2 years, simply to end the debacle. I now have an upcoming date for a hearing because the stipulations have still not been met. Every time I left that courthouse I was sure I would never have to go there again, but here I am headed back in August. Simply driving into the parking lot there make me ill. It may seem normal to many people to go to court but to many of us it is alien. I have stood on the mile long line in the freezing winter and in the sweltering summer with all the others who have to report to their parole officer. They have it nailed, I heard one of them say one day, &quot; I'm telling that Judge, I only got a half hour, I got tickets to the Mets&quot;. I bet he made it to the game. I don't think I uttered more than 20 words in all the times I was in Court. In the end, they tell you which lie to tell, even coach you in open court and you tell the lie and then you get the divorce. Gives you a lot of faith in the justice system. I am 59 years old, am considered to be sane (so far) and I cannot reconcile that any judge, state or religion is going to make such a huge life altering decision for me. It was hard enough to make it for myself. 2008-07-16 18:36:14 divorceinsuffolkcounty <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32308/ 32308 There is no excuse to maintain fault grounds for divorce, except perhaps political expedience. New York legislators should be villified for their inattention and inaction. To invite perjurious testimony to obtain a divorce in New York is inexcusable 2008-07-16 09:25:41 saillex <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32305/ 32305 When you read the comments in this forum and other message boards, it is common to see complaints about New York divorce laws, the judges, the &quot;system&quot; and everyone involved. But lawyers are complained about the most. As a lawyer who specializes in matrimonial matters, I would encourage everyone who is contemplating a divorce to interview several lawyers before retaining one. In every profession, there are &quot;good&quot; and &quot;bad&quot; apples. There are attorneys who litigate every issue (and thereby incur huge fees) and there are attorneys who are known for a more moderate approach, which usually means a settlement in their client's best interest. What most often happens is that parties in a divorce go to attorneys when they are angry, insecure, or feeling spiteful. So their divorce cases start out with unreasonable positions, game playing, and delays. Six months (and a few legal bills later), most rational people come to their senses, their anger dissipates, and they start to think about settling issues. When the case is finally over, and thousands of dollars have been unnecessarily spent on legal fees, they blame the lawyers, without ever accepting responsibility.In my firm, which is one of the largest matrimonial firms on Long Island, we offer a free consultation, and we almost never commence litigation without a concerted effort to resolve issues. When I meet with a client, I encourage the client to deal with their emotional and personal issues and keep it out of the divorce. I encourage clients to view their divorce as the dissolution of a business partnership, which is how many judges tend to view divorce cases. In other words, there are assets and debts that must be fairly divided. Parents must learn to treat each other with respect, and they must communicate with one another. The PEACE program is a very effective in this regard. The vast majority of divorce involve simple financial issues and normal parenting issues. These cases should be kept out of court. If you go to an attorney when you are angry and tell that attorney to &quot;go the judge&quot; instead of trying to settle, don't blame it on the attorney and the &quot;system&quot;. Be an educated participant in the process!Sincerely,Jacqueline Harounian, Esq.The Law Firm of Wisselman, Harounian &amp; Associates, P.C.1010 Northern Blvd. Suite 300Great Neck, NY 11021516-773-8300-phone516-773-8304-fax jackie@lawjaw.com www.lawjaw.com 2008-07-16 07:34:04 NewYorkDivorceAttorney <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32295/ 32295 I filed for divorce in June of 2005. My mistake had to go for a hair folicle test which came back possitive for cocaine and pot (I only knew about the pot which I didn't mind because it made him less of a monster). The forensic report reads that he is an addict, DSM1V anti social personality disorder and &quot;developementally retarted&quot; She recommended supervised visitation which doesn't matter because the forensic report stupidly enough does not come out untill the trial. Now, three years later, the forensic report is deemed too old.When I met him he said he was bipolar but he seemed o.k.(to me) He was on lithium. Anyway... after the hair folicle test result, the judge ordered an exchange of the kids at the place for supervised visitation. Once he picked them up however, he was free to take them to Maryland, where he lives with his girlfriend in his girlfriends mothers house, his philosophy being that if he picked them up not high they would be safe! Last summer in August, I recieved a terrifying phone call from my son saying he was in the car with the girlfriend, she bounced them off guard rails and slammed them into a parked car! I did a background check on her. She had 3 DWI's had been in jail, was on probation, has a revoked drivers licence, lost custody of her son because of child endangerment has a stay away from her sons school and was investigated repeatedly by child protective services. I sent this information to the law guardian who told me she did not care, it is not her job to protect the children (if you email me at stellabluek@yahoo.com, I will tell you who she is. I drove down to Maryland and slept in my car by her house. My intention was to call the police as soon as she pulled away with them. I spoke to my brother sometime before the sun came up and he said &quot;What if you call the police and she takes them on a high speed chase and wraps them around a tree?&quot; I was so scared then that I drove home! My lawyer told the law guardian that it would not bode well for her if something happened to my children and she had this info, so she fianally made a motion for supervised visitation. The judge ordered him visitation in nassau county only and the children can not be exposed to girlfriend. Girlfriend got another dwi last Dec., ran a light slammed into another car permenently disabling passenger and went to jail until May 9th (big deal!). Stbxh also got dwi in March of 2007. He is fighting again to take kids to Maryland again this summer! Judge says o.k. if he passes a hair folicle test! This is so very sick and bazzare to me! We put helmets on their heads and put them in car seats to keep them safe and comply with the law but the same law is forcing me to play russian roulette with their lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My stbxh is being placated at the expence of my kids well being!!!! 2008-07-15 21:10:37 freewoman59 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32263/ 32263 Yes, parents need to understand why they find themselves in the &quot;pickle&quot; they are in. Yes, it would be better if parents understood how they got to where they are. Yes, it would be better for them to know how they got where they are to help be better parents and to avoid the same problems in the future which would be better for them and their children. However, we cannot expect the divorce process, which by its nature is adverserial, to cure everyone's issues. Most decent lawyers recommend some form of topical counseling for their clients who are going through this process. The shame of it all is that what many of us are actually saying is that we expect the very best behavior from angry and or hurting parents when they are getting divorced. A lofty goal but hard to accomplish. I think that the best we can do is to try to get folks through the process as quickly as possible, hoping that we do not exacerbate the problems. There is always time for anger it is just not helpful in the divorce process. More importantly a divorce does not end anything where there are children. Adults have as much if not more work to do after the divorce than during the divorce. Raising children&quot;together&quot; is a hell of alot of work and more time should be spent helping guide people after the divorce to protect children. That is why the cottage industry of &quot;parent coordination&quot; has come into being and courts throughout the state should be authorizing their use more frequently. We need to keep parties from coming back to court over and over again. These repeat litigants or &quot;recidivists&quot; as they are called are jamming the courts and more often than not adding unnecessary burdens to their children. Hal Mayerson 2008-07-15 13:51:19 HalMayerson <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32262/ 32262 No fault divorce should be low on the priorities of divorce reform. The children have threatened suicide, developed eating disorders, and are self mutilating. The true issue is child custody. Laws should be enacted to entitle each parent to equal time with the children, joint legal and physical custody. Additionally child support laws should be changed to recognize parents (mostly fathers) who spend substantial time with their children. Additionally parents receiving child support should be required to document at least 50% of the money being spent directly on the children. Having been trough a bitter Nassau County divorce, I learned first hand how emotionally draining it is for everyone involved, especially children. Lawyers remarked they never saw so much paper in all their careers. The cost of our divorce exceeded $160,000 and took two years. Child custody is still an issue. The problems start early in family court where temporary orders of protection are issued without any attempt to verify facts. All one has to do is go there, ask for an order, come up with any story stating you feel threatened, wait around the better part of a day and be granted a stay away order. One is now removed from their house and their children. Should you attend a little league game you&rsquo;re arrested for contempt of court, which further ruins your cause. On the other hand if you don&rsquo;t make any contact with your children you are considered to be abandoning them. The trail to get to the facts in these cases often occur months later, by then much damage is already done. This alienation is further aided by Child Protective Services with also ignores facts and disposes of cases the easiest way it knows how &ndash; do nothing and close them. A simple call to Albany and brief letter persuaded the state to dispose of Nassau&rsquo;s baseless CPS findings. No fair trail was even required, that&rsquo;s how outrageous the false claims were. When one files for divorce and requests child support again one&rsquo;s word is taken as fact, no supporting evidence needed. In my case my wife overstated my income by $60,000 (significant on top of a $100,000 income), and was awarded &ldquo;child&rdquo; support based solely on the fraudulent claim. Left out of the equation were some very significant facts; I was no longer employed at the time of the filing (due to downsizing), and spouse had resigned a $90,000 a year job just prior to filing solely to increase her odds of gaining support. Once again the case is heard months after the fact. Once the &ldquo;child&rdquo; support was reduced I was given a credit for the nearly $10,000 in over payments, a credit I was never allowed to use. Now the court antics start. Judge Falanga learns this is a highly contested divorce. Child custody is the main issue. Judge Falanga &lsquo;asks&rsquo; us (not orders) to work out a schedule &lsquo;before leaving the court house&rsquo;. Wife offers every-other-weekend, I want every other week. Her and her attorney leave the courthouse with the issue unresolved. No penalty for that. Another month goes by, next appearance judge Falanga &lsquo;advices&rsquo; us to meet with Lisa Aganasi to mediate a solution. Wife and I agree to let Lisa Asansi to interview the child and see how they feel. Wife changes her mind the next day again without penalty. We are now ordered to a forensic psychologist. An estimated cost of $8,000 to be paid solely by me out of my severance pay. The forensic psychologist recommend equal time with both of us. Yet nothing happened. Forensic psychologist meets with both spouses and children at least twice individually and once to judge the interaction between each parent and the children. Wife is diagnoses with several personality disorders, children request more time with me. Again nothing is done. The judge can&rsquo;t read this report he ordered because wife won&rsquo;t consent to it. Our older child is now in therapy after threatening suicide at school. Finally a law guardian, Cheryl Kreger is appointed to our case. Ms Kreger meets with the children as states they want to continue to live with their mom. Under questioning Ms Kreger admits she never asked the child that question. She never offered every other week with each parent either. She also failed to communicate with daughters therapist. Ms Kreger also overlooks wife&rsquo;s diagnosis of mental illness. The case drags on and on with constant bickering and trash talk from wife&rsquo;s attorney, Howard Leff, costing our family $1000/hr for the privilege. The children are still stressing. Oldest daughter now hospitalized for an eating disorder. Still no one cares. Finally, after spending over $100,000 on just my costs I cannot go any further, Judge Falanga orders a trial, then has no time for one. Then he threatens to run up our costs by making us sit idly by for 4-5 hours while our attorneys our on the clock. We attempt, and finally succeed at an &lsquo;agreement&rsquo;. More like one was shoved down my throat. Now I have less custody at a lower frequency than before. I must maintain a suitable house for my children in the same school district as their mom so I can have over night on school nights. I spend roughly 40% of the time with the children but must pay %100 of the child support. It&rsquo;s hard to entertain kids when even movie tickets would run for the four of us. Despite the fact the children are to receive over $4000 and month in child support they often come over in dilapidated clothes, their pockets are empty, and I&rsquo;m expected to take them to birthday parties (no present supplied of course), theme parks, and other general things a dad would like to do with his children. I can&rsquo;t afford it. Meanwhile wife surrounds herself with the latest in HDTV&rsquo;s, manicures and professional massages. The kids receive no allowances and are often forbidden to enjoy company of their friends. These children are 15, 13, and 11. They want to spend more time with me, this is even echoed by their therapist. My oldest is cutting herself. They often must tag along with their mom for an entire weekend while she sleeps with her out of state boyfriend in the presence of our children. I offer to keep them here with me while she dates, but my offers are violently rejected. I&rsquo;ve asked for more time with the children and receive threats of reduced time in return. If the children speak up they are told their mom will have me arrested if they come over my house. They are also threatened with losses of other privileges if they talk more about it. My oldest jumped from a moving car to escape one of her mother&rsquo;s beatings. Does this sound like resolution to anyone? No-Fault divorce &ndash; who cares &ndash; lets straighten out the children first. 2008-07-15 13:20:56 marktrennie <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32258/ 32258 Leslie Siefert raises a very important point. Robert Emery, a psychologist and divorce researcher, has written that there are four tasks to getting a divorce: the legal divorce, the financial divorce, the severing of the spousal relationship, and the re-structuring of the parenting relationship. To really resolve a marriage successfully is not just a legal process, it involves all four tasks. Resolving the spousal relationship means coming to terms with the end of the marriage and this is a very emotional process. It helps when a spouse is able to give him or herself the space to reflect on the marriage relationship, what was good, what wasn't, what was each person's role in the marriage coming apart, and what can be learned for future relationships. However, I definitely do not think that deciding on the legal grounds for divorce is where this type of self-reflection takes place. When fault is contested in court, it is not about self-reflection or learning for the future. It is about blaming and/or seeking some advantage in the adversarial maneuverings. The healthy self-reflection, or joint reflection and review of the relationship, is not what the court process is designed for. In mediation or collaborative practice divorce these emotional issues can sometimes be touched on constructively. Or they can be dealt with in individual or couples' divorce counseling. Dr. Steven Demby 2008-07-15 11:38:15 Dr.Demby <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32257/ 32257 A further post concerning the need of parents to process &quot;fault&quot; for the dissolution of the marriage. I am not a psychologist, but do think it is an important need. We all should come to terms with our strengths and weaknesses as spouses, parents and human beings and a failed relationship is a major opportunity to do that. There is, however, a major difference between processing fault through therapy and counseling and reflection and the fault divorce system. The fault divorce system encourages (indeed requires) one spouse to focus blame on the other party, and discount his or her own role in the marital dissolution. The fault system requires that the plaintiff in the divorce be blameless and the other to be the &quot;guilty&quot; party. If the plaintiff in a divorce action also commits adultery, for example, he or she cannot get a divorce from the defendant, as divorce is reserved for the innocent. In my view, focusing all blame on one spouse in legal filings does not encourage a person to come to terms with their role in the end of a marriage, or to look at the end of the marriage as a failed opportunity for both former partners. Andy Schepard 2008-07-15 11:25:39 AndrewSchepard <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32249/ 32249 I sympathize with the pain and anger that the comments about New York's divorce system reflect.A number of comments have blamed lawyers for the failure of New York to enact no fault. Some lawyers are very adversarial and promote conflict. I feel compelled to point out, however, that bar associations throughout the state have been the leaders in seeking to enact no fault. The lawyers are not the problem- it is the Catholic Church and certain women's groups, as previous posts have pointed out.A number of posts have also raised concerns about the outlooks and ruling of individual lawyers and judges. Parents can, however, opt out of the adversary process through collaborative law, mediation and other alternatives to litigation. Today, they have more dispute resolution options than ever before. Most judges will tell you that they strongly prefer parents resolve their disputes rather than rule on them. It is not because the judges are lazy and don't want to rule Rather, they know that they are strangers to the family- no matter how much information they get in a trial- and should not replace parents in making decisions for children. Thats the parents job. Mandatory parent education and mediation would help encourage parents not to subject themselves and their children to the delays and disempowerment of the adversary system that they should resolve themselves around a kitchen table or in a conference room, not a courtroom. Andy Schepard 2008-07-15 10:08:58 AndrewSchepard <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32248/ 32248   Here are some questions for our panelists from Newsday Op-Ed Editor Leslie Seifert, inspired by the reader comments:  On the issue of finding "fault": Don't parents need to process and understand what has occurred in the marriage? Dr. Demby said earlier: "While [expressing emotional distress] satisfies deep emotional needs, especially for the parent who feels the most injured by the other parent&rsquo;s actions, it does not keep the focus on the important question: how will the post-divorce family be re-structured to be most supportive of the children&rsquo;s needs?" Similarly, Steven Carlson wrote, "The less conflict the child is exposed to during the divorce, the less emotional harm the child will suffer. Kids are primarily affected by how their parents divorced &ndash; not why they divorced." But couldn't it be useful for parents to think about who did what and why in the collapsing relationship? If parents don't try to understand this, they won't learn much from the experience. This could ultimately hurt their children, as they go on to other relationships, or never resolve the one that the child came from. Isn't a psychological processing of the relationship also supportive of a child's needs? On some level, could the question of fault be a useful idea for parents trying to "process" what has happened. And what are variations on this concept that might be helpful to the family overall (rather than just ignoring these conflicts)? 2008-07-15 10:02:16 Meeshell2008 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32245/ 32245 Dear Needdirection, As I am sure you understand, it is not possible to comment on the specifics of any particular case in an open forum such as this. So my comments are somewhat general. You are right to express concern about how lengthy the court process can be. Child specialists have noted that children have a very different sense of time than adults, and the court process is often not sensitive to the child's time sense. For example, being separated from a parent for a year can seem like an eternity for a young child. A court proceeding that drags on for three years, represents one third of a nine year old's life. For adults too the seemingly inevitable delays and postponements can be very frustrating and leave one feeling in limbo, unable to move on with one's life. From my own experience, I have seen the benefit of support groups consisting of other parents going through difficult divorces. I have been impressed with the ability of the parents in these groups to share experiences, ideas, and to give each other genuine emotional support. Otherwise you can feel like the only person you know going through this hell. Getting good support is so important to help one be able to hang in there for the sake of one's children. Dr. Steven Demby 2008-07-15 08:32:52 Dr.Demby <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32234/ 32234 I have lived the nightmare that is our dysfunctional legal matrimonial obliteration system here in NY for nearly a decade.The toll so far:One Chapter 7One 11 yr old child who is an  emotional messA father being forced to choose between continuing a cycle of finanical failure and remaining in proximity to his child here on LI or being forced to move elsewhere to escape the obscene cost of living that sees 50% of his monthly income go for rent.That also means he is being forced to leave his daughter in the care and custody of a woman who should not have custody of a parakeet, but thanks to the aforementioned system populated and controlled by sycophant attorneys who get rich at the expense of their clients, this woman is free to continue raising this child as an emotionally co-dependent and socially isolated victim of the whole replusive situation.This child's mother forces her to live in a house that is so filthy and cluttered that the child has NEVER been able to host a friend inside her house. At age 11. But with a Nassau County Child Protective System that was nearly complicit in the homicides of three innocent children in New Cassel earlier this year, engaging the serivces of CPS would likely accomplish nothing. This child's mother is so emotionally co-dependent on her own mother (grandma to the child) that grandma is "needed" to help get the child (plus another half-sibling age 7) off to school EACHAND EVERY DAY.This child's mother has for more than a decade been engaging in depression-induced shopping sprees, hoarding useless junk which now sits collecting dust in at least two storage units (at a cost of hundreds of dollars per month). The mother has also recently taken to obtaining merchandise via her employee discount from her "major retail" employer, and turning around and flipping that same merchandise for her own profit on Ebay. Day in and day out, this child's mother feeds this child an endless supply of calorie and fat-laden fast food (pizza, hot dogs, Boston Market on a "good" night) because the mother patently refuses to cook even a half-way decent meal, even though the mother works only 30 hours per week. The number of decent meals the mother has prepared in the last 5 years for this child can literally be counted on one hand.And what can I, the father of this adorable, sweet 11 yr old do about it? Thanks to our decrepit, sycophant-ruled legal system, which is open only to those with wallets as deep as the Marianas Trench, NOT A DAMN THING, thank you very much.Other than be forced to move out of state because my total annual compensation, while MORE THAN ADEQUATE to live fairly well in other parts of the country, leaves me nearly impoverished here, because 50% of said compensation goes for a 600 square foot 2-bedroom apartment.And my ex and her husband are in the same financial boat I am with AT LEAST 40% (and probably more) of their total income going to their $3000 monthly rent of an 80 yr old 1200 square foot house with a basement that leaks every time we get a half-inch of rain.So the child is victimized emotionally and financially by her own mother on a daily basis.If I sound bitter, it's because I am after years of being forced to sit idly by and watch my ex-wife destroy our daughter, bit by bit, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. And she KNOWS the system won't touch her.Lest anyone think I'm doing a "hatchet job" on a poor, innocent woman, I'm attaching two pics of the conditions my daughter has lived in every day for her entire life. One pic is her prior residence which they moved from over two years ago, and the other is from the current residence.I feel very sorry for my child, and for all the children who are victimized daily by parents who failed them, and by a system which fails the parents and children due to the unabashed avarice of those who control it.    2008-07-15 06:10:22 leavingLI0815 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32227/ 32227 Going through a divorce at present time.The corruption of these lawyers is ridiculous.Never mind the gender bias a father/husband has to face.My soon to be ex,can violate every court order without reprocussion.Meanwhile,I am in contempt based on false allegations.I had temporary custody of 3 of my 4 daughters,all 4 have been physically and mentally abused,but the one that was visiting with her mother was being hit on visitation.She told the law guardian,The law guardian in turn told my oldest daughter to take pictures upon visitation returns.Then the law guardian told us not to force her to go if she didnt want to.A few weeks later they took my daugter from me.The law guardian had set me up.I was a fool.And my lawyer wouldnt go against the law guarian.So I got Another lawyer to help get my daughter back.They promised me the world until they got a $10,000 retainer,then basically proceeded to work on the opposing counsels side.This is just a tip of on iceberg.I have much more.And basically if all 3 attys are against me theres nothing I can do except grieve and sue after litigation is complete.I cry every night for the 2 little girls who are stuck with thier mother.They are being abused and neglected.They both fight with me when they have to go back with thier mother.My 3 year old hugs my leg and says&quot;I stay with you daddy,I scared my mommy,mommy hurts me.&quot;This is just a small portion of some of what my daughters and I have enured.I have been financilly run into the ground by my ex.I now have to represent myself.But I will not give up on my girls.I will grieve,sue,go public and anything else I have to do to hold everybody accountable so others do not have to endure this corruption.If anybody would like to comment or give me advice or help me,please feel free.I need all the help I can get.This court system needs alot of fixing! 2008-07-15 01:38:13 aaabob0 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32224/ 32224 This sums up exactly what I am going through. Because my stbx refuses to settle..I am now must run up legal bills to settle. I suppose in his mind, if he settles, he loses money..so by refusing we both will lose money. I wish someone could explain what is the mental switch that clicks in a partner's head that wants to retaliate by making the lawyers wealthier? I also think it's pride, because one each partner takes that warpath they are too proud to say 'this is stupid..let's find a settlement.' 2008-07-14 20:45:15 Wentopia <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32223/ 32223 Well after reading the previous post I now realize my expectatiotions of having my divorce settled and over with after we officially filed in December 2007 is a pipe dream. Athough the are no children involved in my case, my stbx refuses to settle, so he would rather delay and run up legal fees to spite me. His lawyer is costing him on average $5000 grand a month. Mine stopped billing me because he saw that my husband is only doing this to pressure me. He in fact said &quot;your husband is sick&quot; but of course my husband's lawyer is happy...Since my husband won't settle, and I can't afford to leave my home I must put up with court appearances. In a sad and weird way the two of us could go our separate ways but if one partner is determined to use the system as an extention of his control issues the other party must cave in to unreasonable settlement of fight for their rights. I am chosing to fight for my rights. In this economy I can't really afford not to. It's a dsyfunctional sysytem because it is not based on logic but the whims of angry tempermental spouses..and the only ones who make out are the lawyers. You would think a spouse would want to settle and move on with their lives, but maybe some spouses truly enjoy the drama of going to court..it makes them feel in control of their future ex's destiny. 2008-07-14 20:05:28 Wentopia <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32219/ 32219 Below are comments that were posted to the topix site in response to the article. We have moved the comments here so that the discussion can continue in this dedicated forum. Thanks. --Ed. -------------------------- mercator Coram, NY Are you trying to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs for the law profession? When pols become ordinary people laws will be written so anyone can understand them. The pols mostly lawyers write convoluted language into laws to insure there economic survival. ------------------------------ Laura Centereach, NY I was married for six months before my husband's mental illness took over and he stole all of our money, my jewelry, and became violent and a danger to my well-being. Over $30,000 in legal fees, $50,000 in stolen items that I will never get back, and two and a half years later, I still do not have a divorce decree due to the postponements and incompetencies of the New York State family court system. My story is the poster child for the disfunctional New York State divorce process. ------------------------------ familydestroyed Glen Cove, NY Some Judges rule based on sympathy. So....if the person is mentally ill and clearly dying, there is no way in hell that you will get a fair trial --your family too will be destroyed. ------------------------------ NoFault Woodbridge, VA Laura wrote: I was married for six months ... Wow. Who knew NY was still in the dark ages? This is sad. Couldn't you have gotten an annulment based on fraud or something like that? Didn't know he was mentally ill? I forget how that works. But back in the day, I'm talking the 50's this is how NY and its divorce laws were circumvented. Divorce in another state. Mother's husband, mentally ill. Had even been committed to Central Islip for a time. Went to NY lawyer. She had to fly to Birmington Alabama for a couple of days. Paperwork done. Divorced. Don't know what the deal was on residency requirements but that was all taken care of. All legal. Interesting. ------------------------------ Bernie Fort Pierce, FL I agree 210% with mercator. The legislators (lawyers) are not going to stop this. This is another legal slush fund. Why the hell the politicians listen to lobbyists is beyond me. Oh yeah...Why is the Catholic Church lobbying? They should be clearing their ranks of deviant, gay, and ****sexual priests. Not trying to prolong totally dysfunctional relationships. ------------------------------ Gen77 Mineola, NY Actually, you've got it all wrong. The attorneys and the New York Bar Association fully support changing the law to allow no-fault divorce. The Catholic Church and some women's groups are the ones opposing the change. Not even lawyers like the nasty system in place in NY now. ------------------------------ DivorcedandDestr oyed East Setauket, NY I wanted out of a dead marriage and initially we were separating fairly amicably .. then he went to a lawyer and everything changed .. next thing i received a summons he was suing me for custody of our two girls, child support &amp; alimony ... it then dragged into 2 years of hell, particularly for my children as he began to see how he could use them to his advantage. Even at one point he got so crazy he was physically violent &amp; locked me in a room. I begged judge, law guardian, everyone to do something about him before something bad happened. Nobody cared what he was putting my girls through .. the whole system is designed to keep couples fighting longer so it drags out longer and all the lawyers win. We lost everything, savings, proceeds from sale of house .. everything went to lawyers, law guardian, therapists .. you name it. In the end, I have sole custody, he got nothing. He can't even sign up those girls for a dance lesson without my permission. We both ended up not only broke, but in debt up to our eyeballs in lawyers fees. That divorce cost me about $75,000 but what it did to my children you could never put a price on. If ever a system needed to be overhauled, it's NY's divorce laws. It's absolutely sickening what they put people through. Anyone who profits from that system should be ashamed of themselves .. and there are plenty of them. ------------------------------ alphsone Charleston, SC DivorcedandDestroyed wrote: I wanted out of a dead marriage and initially we were separating fairly amicably .. then he went to a lawyer and everything changed .. next thing i received a summons he was suing me for custody of our two girls, child support &amp; alimony ... Of course lawyers want the business. Lawyers are businessmen and women -- more fighting means more fees: keep fighting. The rule is 1/3 for the lawyers,judges and expert hanger-ons; 1/3 for the woman, 1/6th for the children and the remaining for the man. ------------------------------ DivorcedandDestr oyed East Setauket, NY alphsone wrote: Of course lawyers want the business. Lawyers are businessmen and women -- more fighting means more fees: keep fighting. The rule is 1/3 for the lawyers,judges and expert hanger-ons; 1/3 for the woman, 1/6th for the children and the remaining for the man. Never assume all women make out in the deal and get 1/3 .. I left with sole custody of my kids and that's about it. His child support payments are peanuts because during the divorce he worked part time hours. He even had it written into our agreement that he will bear no financial responsibility for their education whatsoever .. everything for those kids is on my shoulders but he loves to parade himself around as father of the year. And this system created this mess. At 40, I had to rebuild my life all over again. And people wonder why I'm still not dating 4 years later?? I have my life with my two girls and after what they have been through, they are entitled to all of my time outside of when I am working. So never assume the woman &quot;gets&quot; everything and the man gets nothing. ------------------------------ Loyal Democrat Hicksville, NY I would suggest the system was at the receiveing end of a mess two consenting adults created. ------------------------------ DivorcedandDestr oyed East Setauket, NY Very easy to sit back and make comments ... remember I said initially our separation was fairly amicable .. we were getting through it on good terms because of our children ... but when the lawyer became involved that he contacted, that's when the system entered our situation and created havoc. He believed everything his lawyer told him he could &quot;get&quot; out of me, only to end up with nothing two years later. The lawyers &quot;got&quot; what they wanted out of us. Mediation is the best answer for anyone going through divorce, not litigation. ------------------------------ The Innocent West Babylon, NY This is a question for any of those who would like to see no-fault in this state: When one spouce who is currently in a 10+ year marriage decides they want out of their marriage (and assuming nothing is wrong except the love/connection is no longer there), BUT the other spouce wants to try and make things better between them - mainly becasue there are 2 children at stake &amp; a family unit to try &amp; keep together - who then protects the other spouce &amp; the children when you have a no-fault law that allows one partner to disolve &amp; destroy the family unilaterily? PS: I'm not a lawyer, not a religious man, not a therapist, not a reporter, nor lobyist; just a plain old guy looking to give his children the same life that my parents gave to me - a stable one. One that may not have always been happy or sad or easy or conflict free. But, one that has had meaning: Fight harder than a lawyer or a politician to keep it together!! ------------------------------ Esteeben Jamaica, NY would be being a widower be easier then being a divorcee? ------------------------------ Been There East Setauket, NY The Innocent wrote: This is a question for any of those who would like to see no-fault in this state: When one spouce who is currently in a 10+ year marriage decides they want out of their marriage (and assuming nothing is wrong except the love/connection is no longer there), BUT the other spouce wants to try and make things better between them - mainly becasue there are 2 children at stake &amp; a family unit to try &amp; keep together - who then protects the other spouce &amp; the children when you have a no-fault law that allows one partner to disolve &amp; destroy the family unilaterily? PS: I'm not a lawyer, not a religious man, not a therapist, not a reporter, nor lobyist; just a plain old guy looking to give his children the same life that my parents gave to me - a stable one. One that may not have always been happy or sad or easy or conflict free. But, one that has had meaning: Fight harder than a lawyer or a politician to keep it together!! Unfortunately,if one spouse wants out, and is not interested in saving whatever may be left, why would the other spouse want to hold onto someone who no longer wants them? In this case, the no fault law would help even more, because it helps to not prolong and drag out the inevitable .. which is ultimately better for any children in this situation. The problem that happens in most cases involving children is that the parents do not think of their children's needs first ... they think they are putting the kids first, but they are usually not. Even when it is not your fault that the marriage is ending and it's not what you want, it's for sure never the children's fault ... so your own sorrow at the marriage ending has to take a back seat to doing what's right for the children .. and that is simply remaining civil to one another and not putting the kids through the trauma of witnessing their two parents fight through years of litigation. ------------------------------ Never quit trying West Babylon, NY What if one spouce does not want the divorce, simply becasue they are hopeful that things in the relationship will get better &amp; more importantly the one spouce is not selfish &amp; is trying to keep the family together? Who then protects the innocent? With no-fault, the innocent get what? A divorce, days &amp; holidays to see your own kids, half your assets, a country that's being built on instability, etc.. Just becasue the other 49 states have no-fault, doesn't necissarily make it the ultimate solution. The core resolve is to stay focused on the kids, not each others self indulgences, desires, affairs, etc.. ------------------------------ The Innocent West Babylon, NY would be being a widower be easier then being a divorcee? Tough question, but I would have to say it would be easier for the children. I believe it would make them stronger in life, as opposed to feeling many differnt negative feelings of their parents being seperated from each other &amp; having to be shuffled around &amp; argued over. Just my opinion &amp; Sorry if you've lost your loved one. ------------------------------ jake Stormville, NY The NY family court system is broke and it wont be fixed as it is a system designed by lawyers for the betterment of lawyers .It has become a cash cow for lawyers at the expense of destroying families finacially and emotionally. Dont think for one minutes the judge or lawyers cares about you. Dont think for one minute the Commission of Judicial Revue cares about you or your spouse , after all the Commission is headed by a divorce lawyer.Dont think for a minute your lawyer is competent as most arent.Dont think for a minute the judge cares about your case, the judge has his own agneda getting the case settled so he wont need to make a decession and take the chance of being over ruled in appeals court.BIGGEST ADVICE I CAN GIVE IF YOU PLAN A DIVORCE IS DO NOT WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO A JURY..JUDGES AND LAWYERS DONT LIKE JURY'S CAUSE THEY WILL ACTUALLY HELP BRING THE CASE TO A RAPID CONCLUSSION. THE JURY THEY CANT IGNORE AND WE ALREADY KNOW THEY WILL IGNORE YOU JUST TO RUN UP LEGAL FEE'S.THE SYSTEM IS A DISGRACE ESPECIALLY IN NY AND TRAMPLES ON CONSTUTIONAL RIGHTS. DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND KEEP YOUR DIVORCE OUT OF THE COURTS. DONT LET YOUR EGO'S GET IN THE WAY OF COMMON SENSE AND DO TRY USING A MEDIATOR AS YOU WILL ONLY LOOSE TRMEMENDOUS AMNOUNTS OF MONEY BY ENTERING THE CORRUPT LEGAL SYSTEM OF NEW YORK STATE. ------------------------------ Been There East Setauket, NY Never quit trying wrote: What if one spouce does not want the divorce, simply becasue they are hopeful that things in the relationship will get better &amp; more importantly the one spouce is not selfish &amp; is trying to keep the family together? Who then protects the innocent? With no-fault, the innocent get what? A divorce, days &amp; holidays to see your own kids, half your assets, a country that's being built on instability, etc.. Just becasue the other 49 states have no-fault, doesn't necissarily make it the ultimate solution. The core resolve is to stay focused on the kids, not each others self indulgences, desires, affairs, etc.. Again, if one spouse no longer wants to be married, then there is no marriage left. Why keep trying for something that is no longer there? You believe you are thinking about your kids but you are not, you are actually thinking about what's unfair to you .. you said it yourself &quot;With no-fault, the innocent get what? A divorce, days &amp; holidays to see your own kids, half your assets ...&quot; While it does suck that you don't want the divorce, no matter what the children need you to be the better person and deal with it the best you can. If you &amp; your spouse can come out with a civil relationship, then you would most likely get to see those kids more than what the court-ordered visitation calls for. Once you have a good relationship, she can give you the kids for visitation at her discretion. And ultimately that is healthier for the kids .. not forcing someone to stay in a marriage they don't want to be in any longer. Kids can see right through that. Let it go and do what's right for the kids. 2008-07-14 19:32:40 Meeshell2008 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32211/ 32211 Dear Needdirection, As I am sure you understand, I cannot address the specifics of any particular case in a forum like this. I can respond generally and say that courts often move much too slowly. Child experts have spoken out about the need for faster resolutions of cases to better fit the time sense of children. For a three year old, being separated from a parent for one year can seem like an eternity. For a nine year old, a divorce that drags on for three years equals one third of the child's life! For adults too, the process can seem endless leaving one feeling in limbo and unable to move on with one's life. From my experience, parents often benefit from support groups with other parents going through difficult divorces. I have been greatly impressed with the ability of parents faced with similar circumstances to offer support and advice to each other and to help see each other through these ordeals. Dr. Steven Demby 2008-07-14 17:21:46 Dr.Demby <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32210/ 32210 hi i have been trying to get divorced in nassau county for the past year. i have been married for 22 years and have 5 children. my husband contested the grounds of the divorce (cruel and inhuman treatment) and we had a trial which lasted 2 days. after airing all our dirty laundry i won the trial. the judge &quot;named just a few&quot; reasons why. my husbands attorney moved to reargue the trial. there is no such thing as rearguing a trial one can appeal a trial or reargue a motion or order but the judge allowed it and reversed her own decision. all this time we live in the same house I have a court order that he is not allowed in my bedroom so that is where i am most of the time. I offered him to divorce me on any grounds he chooses but he refuses. i just don't understand how the womens organization NOW thinks it is helping women by not having no fault divorce in NY. I will have to live the rest of my life married to this man who has not spoken to me in 5 years?something is wrong and needs to be fixed ASAP. anybody have any idea if no fault will ever pass in NY?thanks 2008-07-14 17:12:54 nyhostage <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32208/ 32208 The NYS Matrimonial Commission, commonly known as the Miller Commission, pulled together some of the keenest judicial and legal minds in NY State and in 2006 issued a report strongly recommending, among other reforms, that New York move to no-fault divorce. Unfortunately, little has happened on this important issue since. Hal Mayerson and Andy Schepard have both pin-pointed the reasons for legislative inertia. I think that our legislators in Albany hear mainly from very vocal groups that oppose no-fault divorce but do not hear much from organized groups that favor it. Hopefully, Sunday's article in Newsday and this forum are small steps in raising public awareness. Dr. Steven Demby 2008-07-14 17:02:53 Dr.Demby <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32194/ 32194 I agree with what my colleague Hal Mayerson said about the relationship between no fault divorce and domestic violence. Domestic violence is a serious threat to the safety of many. Victims of domestic violence need courage and support to extricate themselves from their abusive relationships. Many do not have access to lawyers. The more complicated the divorce laws are for them, the less likely they are to use them. The more complicated the divorce law, the more likely the abuser will find a way to manipulate it to the victim's detriment. Domestic violence groups in other states support no fault divorce. Again, it is hard to understand what is going on in New York.Hal is also right on about the quality of the New York State Legislature. It was rated the worst big state legislature in the Country by the Brennan Center at NYU Law School. In my view, it fundamentally fails in its basic responsibility to update New York's divorce law to meet the needs of our parents and children. There are proven approaches that work elsewhere. The Legislature, however, fails to consider them.Andy Schepard 2008-07-14 14:03:10 AndrewSchepard <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32192/ 32192 Dear Meeshell2008;Those of us who have been advocating no-fault actively for the last five years are familiar with that study that demonstrates that in states which enacted no-fault divorce incidents of domestic violence went down. As you are undoubtedly aware our state legislature is historically non-functional. So one of the reasons nothing gets in Albany done is because nothing gets done. In the case of no-fault the principal opponents are the Catholic Church , the National Oranization for Women and some domestic violence groups centered in New York City. We have consulted many domestic violence groups in the State and most of the ones outside of New York City are strongly in support of no-fault as they believe that many abused women would prefer to not have to confront their abusers in court on these subjects and would prefer to get a divorce and repair and move on with their lives.The failure to enact no-fault is emblematic of the confrontational nature of divorce in New York and until we change the environment we will not have real change in our divorce system. 2008-07-14 13:44:38 HalMayerson <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32187/ 32187 My divorce began in July 2003 and is still pending in Nassau County. I have done everything the Court has ordered including attending and completing the P.E.A.C.E. Program in August 2003 (to date the Defendant has not attended). I have no contact with my three children who have been severely and deliberately removed from my life. I have been locked and barricaded from my home, directly against the order of the Court. I am ordered to pay all household expenses, tuition and very expensive Temporary Child Support and Maintenance with no funds left to even place a roof over my head. Although court ordered, I have not been advised of my children's health care, dental care or educational matters. As a prominent, successful professional, I am broke and in debt. My trial began on June 12, 2007. After less than one day of testimony, the Judge declared an 8 week hiatus and ordered my children into deprogramming therapy.Although numerous letters were sent to the Law Guardian and the Judge regarding the Defendant's non compliance with the order for therapy, his pleas were ignored. The 8 week hiatus turned into 8 months and the trail recommenced on January 23, 2008. On that day, the Judge ordered both parties to leave the courtroom and go for random drug and alchohol testing. I went - the Defendant did not. The next day she was charged with 2 counts of contempt by the Judge. Immediately, we began an Emergency Custody Hearing. It is important to note, there has been no custody awarded to date (temporary or permanent). She was found guilty of contempt for not obtaining the drug and alchohol testing, penalty being held in abeyance. The second contempt charge (failure to attend therapy)and the Emergency Custody Hearing are still pending. On January 28, 2008 the last day of trial, the Judge ordered again that the parties and the children attend therapy and appointed a Parenting Coordinator and this time the Defendant pays. She went for a while, filed 2 appeals with the Appelate Court in Brooklyn and then just stopped claiming she has no money. Trial was scheduled in April, in June and now in August. I am certain there will be more postponements as there always are.I am fighting to rescue my chidren.Their rights to have both parents in their lives have been violated. My rights as a father have been obliterated . My children need therapy and no matter what the court or the therapists tell her about the damage being done to the children, she will not comply. I need custody in order to have access to my children. They are being emotionally abused and there is no end in sight. The delays and postponements have gone past 5 years .I am desperate for any advice or direction you can provide. 2008-07-14 12:52:38 needdirection <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32181/ 32181 A question for our panelists: Why do you think there is pushback against no-fault divorce in New York? Is it general cultural resistance to anything that might expand divorce? Or are there legal and social implications for changing the law that might have negative consequences? Some say that fault-based divorce gives women more leverage in the process, but others say it tends to disempower women.  The magazine Legal Affairs ran a debate on this issue in 2006, and Wharton Professor Justin Wolfers came up with this insight, based on his research: "...states that adopted unilateral divorce laws saw a large decline in rates of domestic violence (and also spousal homicide), while other states actually saw domestic violence rates rise.... The logic for this result also seems quite powerful: If a woman is empowered to leave an abusive marriage even against the objection of her abuser, she may leave." Have you worked with cases involving domestic violence? Do you see a link between the legal structure of the divorce system and the barriers spouses face in escaping abuse? 2008-07-14 11:39:09 Meeshell2008 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32175/ 32175 I too am completely frustrated by the divorce process in New York State. I retained my attorney in January 2006; we have yet to go to trial. My husband does not want the divorce because of religious beliefs, so is fighting this every step of the way. So far I have spent over $9,000 on legal fees and have yet to see the inside of the courtroom. The judge and lawyers have had four meetings that neither my husband nor I were allowed to be a part of. I finally have a trial date in November. When I told my lawyer I would like to be divorced by February 2009 he told me &ldquo;don&rsquo;t count on it.&rdquo; It&rsquo;s crazy that it should take so much time and money for a simple divorce. Our children are not minors and the only asset we have of value is a modest house. By the way, before retaining attorneys we tried mediation. At one point in discussing the disposition of the house the mediator told me that I was &ldquo;living under my husband&rsquo;s bricks&rdquo; and that I shouldn&rsquo;t even have a say in the sale of the house! 2008-07-14 11:18:40 donewithit <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32154/ 32154 What I think most professionals in this area believe is that we have to develop more and more models to help families get through the re-ordering of their lives while going through and after the divorce. One model does not fit all. What most of us are saying is find out what options you have as you contemplate entering this process and explore different models. Mediation is not for everyone. Collaborative lawyering is not for everyone.Sometimes arbitration on financial issues is appropriate. Sometimes the Court system is actually the most efficient way to go. Consult various lawyers and mental health professionals before making selections as to whom you feel comfortable working with. What I frequently tell clients is, if it is possible, keep the heat as low as possible as you will be doing business with your soon to be ex spouse for a long time. Sometimes clients are so angry it is hard to heard this advice. Frequently their anger is justified but we have no alternative but to try to control it, if for no other reason other than to avoid dragging the children into the middle of adult disputes. 2008-07-14 06:30:21 HalMayerson <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32148/ 32148 Dear Beenthere and Glkb: Your frustration and disappointment with the New York divorce system is completely justified.  I believe your voice speaks for many frustrated families caught up in the arbitrary judicial system.  I agree whole-heartedly that standards need to be set such as mandatory mediation and parenting/co-parenting programs for divorcing parents with minors under age 18 &ndash; like many counties throughout the U.S have done. For example, in Missouri, legislators passed a law in 1998 to mandate divorcing parents with minors under age 18 to attend a parenting program when they file for divorce.  In Dade County Florida, and in many other jurisdictions throughout the country, a program to &ldquo;help kids cope with divorce&rdquo; is mandatory. In these counties a final divorce decree will not be granted to any couple whose minor children have not participated in the program.  These are but examples &ndash; many other progressive counties throughout the country have followed suit. Divorce is a process that inevitably involves change and a restructuring of the family. Parents need to be educated about what to expect from their children and learn tools to help them cope with these changes post-divorce.  Parents can help reduce their children's risk of having emotional and behavioral problems by effectively co-parenting and avoiding hostile exchanges. But effective co-parenting is not something that comes natural nor is it the first thing hostile and emotional divorcing couples at war over finances and children want to do.  Hence, the reason why parenting and co-parenting courses should be mandatory &ndash; as should mediation. While mediation, parenting and co-parenting programs may not solve every divorce issue, the benefits for divorcing families and their children who participate are overwhelmingly positive &ndash; it is certainly a huge step in the right direction &ndash; and should be mandatory. Steven Carlson, The Custody Coach&trade; 2008-07-13 15:47:29 TheCustodyCoach <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32147/ 32147 The legal system presently is hurting the process. I find the system very dysfunctional and has a gender bias component against husbands/fathers. I filed for divorce against my wife in the summer of 2007 after I found out she was romantically involved with another man and that she stopped paying bills particularly the mortgage for over 10 months. My filing for divorce was also a counter measure to my wife filing in Suffolk County Family Court for child support because I cut her out of the finances. Having control of the money was more important than solving or saving family problems. This Court without a care for the circumstances awards my wife 25% of my earnings. I was outraged to say the least. My lawyer believed I would have a better shot in Supreme Court. The dysfunction does not change here either. I&rsquo;m the father and step-father of 6 kids one of which did not live with us. I moved from one house to another to make room for all kids who range in age from 1 to 23 at the time. It all falls apart soon after because my wife feels her needs are not being met and she is not having sex to her liking. Secrets were being kept from me. Things like spending money for services and not paying the whole balance. Barrowing money and credit in the thousands from my step kids to help pay bills and swear them to secrecy not to tell me. Money and credit still owed by her. I had to find out from my stepson who was informed by his sisters that Mom is at another mans home at 3:30 AM. A devastating domestic incident between a mom and her 20 year old son occurred at this mans home and on my front lawn at 4AM. I was home sleeping watching my 2 young sons and I found out about the other man. I met the man he admitted he was with my wife. I was forced to leave the home after my wife called my job (Law Enforcement) accusing me of threatening her with a crime. She did this on a day off I had that I told her I was working but instead was in Riverhead obtaining my foreclosure papers. The case was unsubstantiated and my duty status unchanged fortunately. Shortly after I leave she moves to a different house with the help of other man with my 2 boys 2 &amp; 6. She cut me out of both my sons birthdays, Thanksgiving and informs me a few days prior to Christmas that she is going Florida. She stole my car from my friends driveway without my permission or authority, title and insurance in my name solely. I could not get SCPD to take a report for lost plates. I know its Unauthorized use of a Motor Vehicle in NYS and A Domestic incident Report should be prepared. Not in Suffolk County. SCPD is horrible on domestic issues and I could not count on them for help. I had to write SCPD Internal Affairs and the SC DA. Only then did my vehicle miraculously appear. The DA&rsquo;s Office never even acknowledged my letter. A JOKE and extremely dysfunctional.Supreme Court in Suffolk County benefit&rsquo;s the Lawyers only. It&rsquo;s a nice cash cow for them. Five conferences and I have yet to see the Judge. I know who she is but never seen her. The action is in the hallway not the courtroom. Lawyers make more money doing crossword or working on other cases not scheduled while collecting an outrageous fee hourly. What is really going on in chambers during these lawyer conferences? Why as a petitioner am I excluded from these meetings ? How do I know who is Honest? I&rsquo;ve been told by Lawyers that this is a money system. If you have the money you will probably have the advantage. My wife can cause me all kinds of interference with my boys and the courts and police will not do a thing to help me . You will suspend my License and incarcerate me if I do not pay but what about me the guy that does pay and works risking his life for others. What will the system do for me when she prevents visitation? Its all about MONEY!!! I think a Judge Judy format is needed. Especially in cases like mine were assets were thrown down the toilet for no reason. Couples getting divorced should be mandated to parenting counseling and sign a contract regarding upbringing of children. I am finding out what little values my wife really has. We are at odds on everything. We do not have same value system. I get excluded on all important issues regarding my sons and get told about it after decisions are made. It is usually compounded by my wife spending more money she does not have and then expects me to compensate even if I disagree. Its not right . I conclude by saying I LOVE MY KIDS. I am a good DAD. I do not demonize my boys against there mom. I respect there love for her. I encourage it. Its not the same on the other side for me. What is the system doing for Dads like me? Does it even care? What is fair? Assign mediators to settle disputes. Set a standard. Eliminate loopholes and make decisions final. Do something about the SCPD because there is a policy in that department to avoid making Domestic Incident Reports. Not all issues are a civil matter go to court. They are not following NYS guidelines. Check the Domestic Incident Reports they are using. Very very disappointing!!! 2008-07-13 14:46:07 glkb9211 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32145/ 32145 Dear Been There:I sympathize. Divorcing parents need more dispute resolution options than the litigation system. The great majority of people do not have the resources to pay for counsel. Statiistics indicate that an increasing number of divorce litigants are self represented either because they do not have the money to pay counsel or because they do not trust lawyers. In some areas that number is 80% of divorce litigants have no counsel.Something is wrong here. We create a legal system on the assumption that those who use it will have counsel, but they don't. An increasing number of options are available to divorcing couples who want to maintain control over their own futures and reduce costs- mediation and collaborative law are the most important. The problem in New York is that public policy has not provided enough support for these options. When children's futures are at stake, my view is that mediation should be mandatory, not optional, for most couples. Most other states besides New York agree. Andy Schepard 2008-07-13 13:01:45 AndrewSchepard <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32140/ 32140 Dear Been There:Yes, there is definitely a need for more Judges and court personnel and also for more social workers to help families, at no additional cost to them. Additionally, Judges are supposed to level the playing field between spouses of unequal wealth. Unfortunately they do not do this often enough as some believe that if they award counsel fees to the non-monied spouse, all it will do is prolong the liitigation. In my opinion most matrimonial attorneys know what they are doing and try to do a good job. One of the problems in New York is that we do not certify lawyers as experts in their areas of work. So consumers have little information as they go about selecting attorneys in this very complicated area of law. I suggest that before individuals select an attorney they interview at least thre attorneys, check their bona fides to see if they are, for example members of the Family law Section of the New York State Bar Association or Fellows of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers. You wouldn't go to a Ford mechanic if you have a Mercedes Benz; so why go to lawyer who does a little bit of this and a little bit of that rather than someone who primarily practices in the matrimonial field. Hal Mayerson 2008-07-13 11:59:04 HalMayerson <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32138/ 32138 Dear Beenthere, I often hear people voice frustrations similar to yours about their experiences going through the court system. The expense is one big factor. For folks on middle class budgets, the expenses of litigation can seem huge. It feels particularly frustrating when one spouse can block a fair and reasonable settlement offer simply by saying &quot;no,&quot; thereby forcing the other spouse to go to trial and spend more money. The adversarial legal system creates an environment which reinforces &quot;hard ball&quot; negotiating tactics that eat up more and more legal fees. You are correct that often judges do try to promote settlement. Many judges believe that parties should be given an opportunity to try to reach their own settlement before having a solution imposed on them from above. Judges do carry many cases and often prefer to avoid the time a trial would require if possible. This can lead the parties in a divorce to feel that their case is not getting a full hearing before the court unless they go to trial. Divorce itself is a very painful event. I can well understand that it seems unfair to add on top of this the enormous financial strains that can result from divorce litigation. Dr. Demby 2008-07-13 11:37:41 Dr.Demby <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32137/ 32137 Marital debt and credit issues post-divorce is a big issue divorcing couples struggle with in many states.  In New York, any debt accrued during the marriage is considered marital debt subject to distribution between the parties in a divorce.   In an article, Hiding Debts From Your Spouse Can Be Recipe for Divorce, Sheera Gefen-Greenberg, a matrimonial attorney for municipal employees' services in New York, had a client who was largely in the dark about her husband's assets and liabilities.  However, according to Gefen-Greenberg, "Even though he's primarily liable for those debts, the wife, in a divorce, may still have to foot the bill at the end of the day."   While marital debt accrued by one spouse during the marriage may be grounds for divorce, the distribution of the marital debt during divorce and credit issues post-divorce can still be extremely problematic.   As New York matrimonial attorney Gefen-Greenberg put it, "Without a prenuptial or postnuptial agreement, it's hard to protect yourself." "You shouldn't be passive about your finances; know what's going on throughout the marriage."   So how can couples avoid marital debt and potential credit issues post-divorce? Here are 5 ideas:   1. Obtain a fiscal check up prior to marriage   2. Obtain annual credit checks during marriage   3. Monitor bills and credit card spending   4. Prenuptial agreement   5. Postnuptial agreement   For 5 more ideas on how divorcing couples can &ldquo;divorce their credit histories,&rdquo; see article Credit Histories Can Stay Married Long After Divorce. Hiding Debt Link: a href=&rdquo; http://www.smartmoney.com/debt/advice/index.cfm?story=hidingdebt Credit Histories Link: http://www.smartmoney.com/divorce/basics/index.cfm?story=credithistories&pgnum=2   I welcome your thoughts and opinions.   Steven Carlson, The Custody Coach&trade; 2008-07-13 10:42:33 TheCustodyCoach <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32134/ 32134 As a recent divorcee, going through a three year, nasty, expensive divorce in Nassau County - I am outraged by New York's divorce system. Not so much for the lack of &quot;no fault&quot; divorce because what most people do not realize is that even though New Yorkers must cite fault with their divorces ... it really doesn't matter who is at fault. In the end, you really don't get any more or less because your spouse was a cheat adicted to porn. Why do you think 86% of New Yorkers chose &quot;abandonment&quot; as grounds for divorce... because nobody really cares who is at fault. During my divorce proceedings, the Nassau county judge had about forty cases on her docket each day I was in court. She has about five or so minutes to devote to my case and could really care less about how many times my ex cheated on me. Unless you have the time, money and energy to go to trial like Christie Brinkley... the judges here do not want to &quot;judge&quot;... they want you to SETTLE it on your own. And if you can't come to an agreement - well then you just spend more time and money in the court system arguing over who gets the throw pillows because the judges have to time to intervene. No party is forced to take any settlement they don't want (no matter how fair it is) unless you go to trial -- which could take months and months and thousands and thousands of dollars. I am no Christie Brinkley, I am a middle class school teacher from Long Island who paid out her life's savings to a divorce lawyer because we just couldn't agree on a settlement and had absolutely no help from the court system. I ended up dead broke and my lawyer bought a new boat. What we really need is mediation, and perhaps more judges who have the time and energy to actually judge. 2008-07-13 09:20:28 beenthere07 <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32121/ 32121 I think there is something wrong when a husband/wife is respnsible for their wife's/husband's debt and there is no legal recourse to get them to stop spending money.I have been married for 14 years and at the time, my wife was working. After 4 years, she decided she didn't want to work anymore-one month after we moved into a new house we bought together. Ten years later and two refinances such that the mortgage is now more than twice what we paid for the house, I have had enough. No amount of discussion was able to get her to realize her problem and put an end to her spending. When she'd go out and buy a blouse (that she probably didn't need anyway) she'd buy the same blouse in six different colors. She has about twenty feet of closet pole and about fifty feet of clothing-the upsatirs is a mess. At one point, she discovered the shopping channels and the crap was coming in so fast, it just piled up, unopened. In one two year period she spent more than my gross annual salary on stuff that has absolutely no residual value!I go to work every day in an effort to make a comfortable life for both of us but I am having it siphoned away from under me. I finally had to leave the house back in October of 2007 and file for divorce . I have paid the mortgage, insurance and utilities since, for a house I don't get to live in. Now she is contesting grounds and making it still more difficult for me to have the rewarding life I deserve. A person that has a spouse that brings the couple to the verge of bankruptcy should have grounds for divorce. 2008-07-13 07:05:09 dontwannabebroke <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32113/ 32113 As many of the readers of Newsday are aware, New York State divorce and custody laws are extremely complicated and notwithsatnding the efforts of the New York State Bar Association, The Women's Bar Association of the State of New York, the New York Chapter of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers and many others, efforts to simplify have a met a deaf ear in the New York State Legislature. A primary example of a major obstacle to reduce the time and cost of divorce in New York is the Legislature's refusal to have our State join the 49 others by enacting true no-fault legislation. We are the only state which does not have a pure no-fault law. This reality requires each person who seeks a divorce to allege very clear reasons why they believe they are entitled to a divorce. Frequently this means that if one party does not want the divorce they can demand a trial by a Judge or even by a jury to decide whether a divorce will be granted. This requires parties to have their attorney's draft papers telling the court what happened during the marriage and in effect washing the family's dirty linen basically in public. Once one of the parties chooses to contest the grounds for divorce a sad but slippery slope commences with epithets and diatribes easily flowing back and forth. Too often one of the parents will make these documents available to the children of the marriage and they are thus as we say, &quot;placed or caught in the middle&quot;. Thus, no fault in many cases contributes to the heating up a divorce frequently extending the amount of time it takes to move a case through the court system, adding enormous expense to the process and all frequently further enmeshing the children, who, in effect, become third party victims of divorce a la New York. We must find a better way to help our families in distress, to protect children and to make the process more civilized. Many lawyers, Judges, mental health professional and academics have been working together creating new modalities to help families and many of them work; however until our ancient and arcane divorce laws which require blame as an integral part of the divorce process ends we will continue to have many of the kinds of problems we presently have continuing and interfering with the rights of adults to get on with their lives and to protect children. 2008-07-12 18:58:25 HalMayerson <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32110/ 32110 I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this discussion, which raises some extremely important questions with regard to how New York's fault-based divorce system affects families and children of divorce.  I am a parenting consultant and founder of Child Custody Coach&trade;, which supplies exclusive information, online materials and child custody coaching services to parents nationwide.The fault-based system lengthens the divorce process and creates an acrimonious environment in which spouses are pitted against each other.  Hence, the main reason why the other 49 states have adopted unilateral no-fault divorce laws.  In a fault-based system there is incentive for spouses to blame each other and expose dirty divorce details to gain leverage for custody and finances; financial settlements are based on fault rather than on need, financial contributions or ability to pay.The protracted divorce process and litigation that results from a fault-based system has a negative impact on children &ndash; it increases the amount of parental conflict they are exposed to.  Without question, the conditions and amount of conflict the child is exposed to leading up to the divorce has a far greater impact on a child than the family split-up itself.  The shorter the divorce process, the less conflict the child will be exposed to.  The less conflict the child is exposed to during the divorce, the less emotional harm the child will suffer.  Kids are primarily affected by how their parents divorced &ndash; not why they divorced.So how can divorcing parents help their children? Here are 5 suggestions:1. Do not discuss the dirty divorce details within earshot of the children.  Keep the dirty laundry to yourself.2. Do not speak negatively about the other parent.  Children know they are a creation of both parents &ndash; hearing negative remarks about either parent is harmful to them.3. Children can benefit from a good therapist &ndash; children can speak freely and confidentially to a therapist without the feelings of having to choose between parents.4. Parents should take a co-parenting course and get counseling to enhance their parenting skills and learn how to work together post-divorce for the benefit of their children.5. Avoid litigation if at all possible.  You can keep your parenting relationship   amicable which will benefit the kids &ndash; and save a fortune in legal fees!Does New York&rsquo;s fault-based system place too much emphasis on why you divorce rather than how you divorce?  Do the other 49 states have it wrong with strict unilateral no-fault divorce?I welcome your thoughts and opinions.Steven Carlson, The Custody Coach&trade; 2008-07-12 16:44:05 TheCustodyCoach <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32104/ 32104 I am very happy to be participating in Newsday's forum on this important topic. The research is unanimous in showing that exposing children to parental conflict during divorce is psychologically damaging to them. A child&rsquo;s identity is made up of building blocks from each parent. When children hear bad things about either parent, they feel like a part of themselves is bad and unlovable. Litigation has its place in certain types of cases. But too often litigated divorce ratchets up the conflict between the parents rather than helping to contain it. And after the litigation is over, the memory of the allegations and personal attacks that have been hurled at each other remains. Left over anger and bitterness between the parents can continue to smolder, preventing parents from communicating and co-parenting constructively, and the children suffer as a result. Alternatives to litigation such as mediation and Collaborative Practice are not for everybody. But when they are suitable, they help to contain rather than exacerbate the conflict, making it more likely that parents will find ways to effectively co-parent after the divorce is finalized. Parents can protectively shield children from divorce conflict by offering their children an explanation of the reasons for the divorce that is tailored to the child&rsquo;s age and ability to understand and that spares the child too many intimate details which are really the adults&rsquo; private business. Parents can also help by refraining from bad-mouthing the other parent to the child, by not asking the child to relay messages to the other parent, by not grilling the child about the activities of the other parent when they return from visits, and by generally supporting the child&rsquo;s relationship with the other parent. Most parents want to protect their children from the nastiness of the divorce. But in the heat of the intense emotions surrounding a divorce, good intentions can fall by the wayside. Parents going through divorce report feeling injured, betrayed, sad, angry, vengeful, guilty, and more. It is a challenge for parents to act protectively toward their children when they themselves are feeling so much emotional distress. The fault system in New York reinforces the view that the legal process of divorce is about assigning guilt and blame. While this satisfies deep emotional needs, especially for the parent who feels the most injured by the other parent&rsquo;s actions, it does not keep the focus on the important question: how will the post-divorce family be re-structured to be most supportive of the children&rsquo;s needs? Dr. Steven Demby 2008-07-12 09:46:55 Dr.Demby <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32092/ 32092 I am delighted to participate in this forum. I practiced divorce law but have primarily been a law professor, and advocate for children for a number of years. One of the things I am proudest of in my professional career is helping to found P.E.A.C.E. (Parent Education and Custody Effectiveness), an education program for divorcing and separating parents that has served as a model for similar programs in New York and elsewhere.  I have been fortunate enough to come into contact with lawyers, judges, mediators, psychologists and advocates for children from all over the Country and all over the world. When I tell someone from elsewhere that I am from New York, he or she inevitably shakes his or her head and states&rdquo; I can&rsquo;t believe you still are a fault divorce state &ndash; we changed years ago, and never want to go back.&rdquo; New York has the reputation everywhere of being the most adversarial divorce system in the United States.  All of the psychological research that we have on divorce indicates that it is "at risk" event for children. The single best predictor of whether children will suffer longer term emotional, educational, or economic damage from their parent's divorce is the level of conflict and animosity between the child's parents. The fault system places parents in an adversary mentality and encourages conflict, which is directly conflict to the children's best interests. It is a relic of a time when divorce was limited, religiously based and treated like a crime or a tort. Most other places treat it now as a time of family reorganization, not for fixing blame or shame. They operate on the philosophy that marriages may end, but parents are forever.  Fault divorce is one of many features of New York's highly adversarial divorce system. Here are other key public policy features of most other states divorce system that benefit children that New York either lacks or is underfinanced and underdeveloped: -Using the neutral, functional language "parenting" instead of "custody" and "visitation" in its statutes and case law; - Mandating that all divorcing parents attend parent education programs as a routine part of the divorce process -Mandating mediation of parenting disputes before trial (cases involving domestic violence and child abuse excepted) -Creating support and educational groups for children to normalize the divorce process for them and tell them "they are not alone" -Creating a code of ethics for divorce lawyers that encourages them to counsel their clients about the best interests of their children in conflict reduction.  - Creating a single court for divorcing families instead of splitting divorce claims between the supreme and the family court These are just some ideas that have been enacted in other states to reduce the adversarial combat of divorce concerning children that have "worked" elsewhere. Some progress has been made on some of these in New York, but not enough for me. Its hard for me to understand what holds New York back. Maybe others can explain it.  Andrew Schepard   2008-07-12 07:17:05 AndrewSchepard <forumuser@vmix.com> http://forum.newsday.com/forums/post/32083/ 32083 The Opinion section invites readers to share their thoughts on New York's divorce system. Have you (or your parents) been through divorce in New York? We invite you to weigh in through our reader forum. Share your own personal experiences with divorce court, and discuss ideas for reforms with some experts in the field. Did the legal system hurt or help the process?Do you think a "no-fault" system would lead to a fairer settlement?What was the impact on your family dynamics and parent-child relationships?How can divorcing parents, inside and outside the legal system, ensure that their children's privacy and sensitivity is respected?Read more about this issue here. Read more about our panelists: Steven Carlson, Steven Demby, Hal Mayerson and Andrew Schepard. 2008-07-11 16:42:47 Meeshell2008 <forumuser@vmix.com>